What is Going On in Arizona?

[azbadpuppy]

Notice you conveniently overlook the abject immorality of the rape, murder, and kidnapping of innocent U.S. citizens by illegals in Arizona. How about the immorality of all those immigrants that came to this country legally, and followed the rules to be come citizens just to see others entering illegally. And how about the immorality of making us taxpayers pay for their education, medical care, police protection at the expense of U.S. citizens. You seem to care more about the illegals than your own neighbors. And as for it not working, how in the he!! do you know that? You gotta crystal ball somewhere that lets you see the future?

Second, as you are apparently a constitutional scholar, please explain to me how the Arizona law is unconstitutional. For beginners, which constitution does it violate (state or fed).

Also, I am getting freakin tired of people in this country always shouting "racism". If you oppose Obama, you're a racist. If you oppose the stimulus, you're a racist. You attend a tea party, you're a racist. It's getting to the point that I think the only racists are those who call things/people racist because of their obsession with race.

Wow you are such a drama queen! You don't even live in a border state yet you have no problems making sweeping accusations that illegals are responsible for all the muders/rapes/kidnappings in Arizona. In reality, the VAST majority of illegals are law abiding and are here to work and make money to take care of their families.

Crime by illegals does happen, and all of the other problems you mentioned are huge issues and were not 'conveniently overlooked' by me or anyone else. They just have nothing to do with this current bill. This bill has nothing to do with curbing illegals from entering the country, and everything to do with violating ALL Arizonans civil rights. U.S. Citizens will be detained and questioned because some cop thought they looked 'suspicious'. No crime commited, just grilled for looking 'suspicious', i.e. Mexican. Being a criminal suspect based solely on your race is indeed racism. Sorry if you don't like the word, but it is what it is.

As far as the unconstitutionality of this law, states are not allowed to pass their own immigration laws because it is an attribute of foreign affairs. California tried back in the 90's and private litigants sued and won- the law was struck down in court. Also in question is the inevitable discrimination based solely on protected characteristics such as race or ethnicity. Sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.

No one denies the overwhelmingly huge problem of illegal immigration, and all the problems that arise from it. Unfortunately this bill addresses none of those. It is a veiled attempt to pander to the far right (of which there are plenty in AZ) by pretending to get tough on illegal immigration through racist means.

For the record, I lived for years and still own a house 5 miles from the Mexican border. Having lived in a border town I am all too familiar with all the issues and opinions regarding this subject. I take offense that you would insinuate that I care more for illegals than I do for my own neighbors. You do not know me.  Living along the border  you see firsthand human suffering: desperation, starvation, poverty, discrimination, etc. It's easy to vilify all the 'illegals' from your armchair, and even easier to forget they are also human beings, most of whom are just trying to survive.

[waterboy]

The law is wrong headed Guido and I think you probably know that as well as D-back. Its intent is to get people at all levels of government and around the country to see the problems that the border states are having and get some action. i think those problems are profound. If they have to use a racist, profiling legislative act to do so they are more than happy to use the tea-sippers-baggers-partiers and birthers to do so. As an effort to get attention it seems to be working.

The birther provisions are just plain moronic and rate right up there with their refusal to acknowledge MLK day. Thank you Arizona, New Mexico and Mississippi, for making us look better by contrast.

[nathanm]

Notice you conveniently overlook the abject immorality of the rape, murder, and kidnapping of innocent U.S. citizens by illegals in Arizona.

By the end of my last post, I'd forgotten I wanted to respond to this.

You conveniently overlook the enabler for that violence, which by the way is not caused by illegal immigration. It's caused by drug runners, who are enabled by our draconian drug laws. Sometimes tolerance towards things you don't like is a better alternative than prohibition. One results in lots of major crime and lots of minor crime.

Take away the profit motive, and the murderous thugs will go home.

[guido911]

Wow you are such a drama queen! You don't even live in a border state yet you have no problems making sweeping accusations that illegals are responsible for all the muders/rapes/kidnappings in Arizona. In reality, the VAST majority of illegals are law abiding and are here to work and make money to take care of their families.

Crime by illegals does happen, and all of the other problems you mentioned are huge issues and were not 'conveniently overlooked' by me or anyone else. They just have nothing to do with this current bill. This bill has nothing to do with curbing illegals from entering the country, and everything to do with violating ALL Arizonans civil rights. U.S. Citizens will be detained and questioned because some cop thought they looked 'suspicious'. No crime commited, just grilled for looking 'suspicious', i.e. Mexican. Being a criminal suspect based solely on your race is indeed racism. Sorry if you don't like the word, but it is what it is.

As far as the unconstitutionality of this law, states are not allowed to pass their own immigration laws because it is an attribute of foreign affairs. California tried back in the 90's and private litigants sued and won- the law was struck down in court. Also in question is the inevitable discrimination based solely on protected characteristics such as race or ethnicity. Sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.

No one denies the overwhelmingly huge problem of illegal immigration, and all the problems that arise from it. Unfortunately this bill addresses none of those. It is a veiled attempt to pander to the far right (of which there are plenty in AZ) by pretending to get tough on illegal immigration through racist means.

For the record, I lived for years and still own a house 5 miles from the Mexican border. Having lived in a border town I am all too familiar with all the issues and opinions regarding this subject. I take offense that you would insinuate that I care more for illegals than I do for my own neighbors. You do not know me.  Living along the border  you see firsthand human suffering: desperation, starvation, poverty, discrimination, etc. It's easy to vilify all the 'illegals' from your armchair, and even easier to forget they are also human beings, most of whom are just trying to survive.

Wow, I'm a drama queen. You started off by accusing 70% of the Arizona people of supporting a bill that was a "racist and moral sin". Notwithstanding, nice how you gave very short shrift as to the crime committed by illegals. Here are some links in which the impact of illegal alien crime is discussed (notwithstanding the fact that being in this country illegally is itself a crime):

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html

Here's an article that points out anti-immigration steps can reduce crime:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2008/sep/city-lowers-crime-deporting-illegal-immigrants

As for its legality, I personally have no problem with a state making it a criminal offense for an illegal alien to trespass on public and private land. I see the state has a legitimate interest in protecting private and public property land, thus making the statute constitutional at least from a formation point of view. As for federal law preemption, I do not see how the Arizona law frustrates or interferes with federal law. Do you think the law interferes with whatever our fed government is doing with immigration?  

As for your taking offense at anything, stow it. I lived in Texas for some time and know a little about life in a border state so I have some context. I also been on both sides of race, gender, age discrimination lawsuits (not as a litigant) and know something about what is constitutional. With that in mind, I do support tougher laws on illegal immigration (maybe not as tough as AZ) and the idea that you think that's racist is offensive.

[guido911]

The law is wrong headed Guido and I think you probably know that as well as D-back. Its intent is to get people at all levels of government and around the country to see the problems that the border states are having and get some action. i think those problems are profound. If they have to use a racist, profiling legislative act to do so they are more than happy to use the tea-sippers-baggers-partiers and birthers to do so. As an effort to get attention it seems to be working.

I am not sure that "wrong headed" is the right phrase, more like desperation in my opinion. I do agree that the law is a national attention getter and a way for McCain and Brewer to get support from the right. For anyone interested, here is an article from a conservative blogger which is logical and many in here might agree with:

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/04/24/correction-the-actual-arizona-immigration-bill/

[guido911]

By the end of my last post, I'd forgotten I wanted to respond to this.

You conveniently overlook the enabler for that violence, which by the way is not caused by illegal immigration. It's caused by drug runners, who are enabled by our draconian drug laws. Sometimes tolerance towards things you don't like is a better alternative than prohibition. One results in lots of major crime and lots of minor crime.

Take away the profit motive, and the murderous thugs will go home.

Check out my links in a previous post. Your post is very broad, can you source it?

[nathanm]

Check out my links in a previous post. Your post is very broad, can you source it?

Not just at the moment (I'd have to go Googling, which I don't have the time for at the moment), but I've read plenty of articles in the Arizona papers regarding these kidnappings, and they seem to all be considered related to drugs, or, more rarely, human trafficking (as opposed to those who hike over the border on their own).

[guido911]

Not just at the moment (I'd have to go Googling, which I don't have the time for at the moment), but I've read plenty of articles in the Arizona papers regarding these kidnappings, and they seem to all be considered related to drugs, or, more rarely, human trafficking (as opposed to those who hike over the border on their own).

Don't bother. I know there is a ton of drug-related crime. I just think you were making a sweeping generalization.

[rwarn17588]

Wow, I'm a drama queen.

I'm glad you finally acknowledged what many of us on the forum have been asserting.

[we vs us]

Yes, this law is racist, and yes this law is unconstitutional.  It'll be struck down in time, though it might take longer than any of us think (if our Supreme Court can come up with a judgment like Citizens United, anything's up for grabs, IMO).

What I think is amazingly coincidental is that senate debate (and voting) on federal immigration reform is actually scheduled to happen before the November election.  I think the house has already passed a bill and like almost everything, it's waiting on Harry Reid to shepherd it through the upper chamber.  This is why Obama tossed his hat in the ring when he did. 

[custosnox]

Yes, this law is racist, and yes this law is unconstitutional.  It'll be struck down in time, though it might take longer than any of us think (if our Supreme Court can come up with a judgment like Citizens United, anything's up for grabs, IMO).

What I think is amazingly coincidental is that senate debate (and voting) on federal immigration reform is actually scheduled to happen before the November election.  I think the house has already passed a bill and like almost everything, it's waiting on Harry Reid to shepherd it through the upper chamber.  This is why Obama tossed his hat in the ring when he did. 

Exactly what in this law is racist or unconstitutional?  Yes, I know, it will be used to profile in a racial way because it is very vague, but that is the use of it, not the law itself. 

[fotd]

Uh, it's unAmerican...it's not our way...it's not our tradition...it's not "give me your...."

It is the stuff that attracts flies.

[dbacks fan]

The law is wrong headed Guido and I think you probably know that as well as D-back. Its intent is to get people at all levels of government and around the country to see the problems that the border states are having and get some action. i think those problems are profound. If they have to use a racist, profiling legislative act to do so they are more than happy to use the tea-sippers-baggers-partiers and birthers to do so. As an effort to get attention it seems to be working.

The birther provisions are just plain moronic and rate right up there with their refusal to acknowledge MLK day. Thank you Arizona, New Mexico and Mississippi, for making us look better by contrast.

I think that the bill/law has problems because it does not address the root of the problem which is border security. It does not make AZ a police state where you can be asked "Let Me See Your Papers" at anytime. It is intended to give the local authorities the abililty to determine the status of some ones citizenship only after being in contact with the person for something else. As it stands now, if there is a question of status, the local authorities have to contact ICE to try and make a determination. When Homeland Security Director Napolitano was governer here she pleaded with the feds to improve security on the border, and sadly she has not really seemed to address that in her new position. JMO. The problems are wide ranging with the illegals here, and it's not just drug crime, it also involves the crimes of human smuggling which one of the biggest is auto theft. The coyotes look for vans and SUV to steal to take across the border and then smuggle people into the US, and on several occasions the coyotes have tried to elude police and been involved in accidents that result in the injury and death of the people that have paid them to get into the US. The kidnappings and murders here are related to both the human smuggling and the drug trafficing, and as I stated earlier it is because the US has narrowed the porus borders to where AZ is the main point to go through the revolving door of illegal entry.

Do I think the the bill/law (I say that because it is not a law yet and won't be until some time in August) is right? No, it's flawed in parts. Does it draw attention to the problem? Yes it does. Will illegal immigration finally be addressed? Probably so, but when it is it will be attacked just as this issue is.

I am not opposed to immigration to the US. My own family immigrated on both my parents sides in the mid 1920's and they did so legaly. If you want a guest worker program so that these people can come to the US and work for a predetermined period of time and then return to their home country for a period of time before returning, then let your reps know this. There has to be some type of reform. I'm not big on giving amnesty to all of them, but give the honest ones a chance to become US citizens. As it is right now some of them don't. If they get caught, we deport them, and less than six months later they are back.

Also, I am not part of the birthers or tea partiers. I leave that up to the people that may have too much time on their hands.

[rwarn17588]

Exactly what in this law is racist or unconstitutional?  Yes, I know, it will be used to profile in a racial way because it is very vague, but that is the use of it, not the law itself. 

You've answered your own question. The fact it is "very vague" is reason enough to strike it down. Vagueness very often causes a law to overstep people's constitutional rights. Vagueness has been cited again and again for a law being overturned.

[waterboy]

I think that the bill/law has problems because it does not address the root of the problem which is border security. It does not make AZ a police state where you can be asked "Let Me See Your Papers" at anytime. It is intended to give the local authorities the abililty to determine the status of some ones citizenship only after being in contact with the person for something else. As it stands now, if there is a question of status, the local authorities have to contact ICE to try and make a determination. When Homeland Security Director Napolitano was governer here she pleaded with the feds to improve security on the border, and sadly she has not really seemed to address that in her new position. JMO. The problems are wide ranging with the illegals here, and it's not just drug crime, it also involves the crimes of human smuggling which one of the biggest is auto theft. The coyotes look for vans and SUV to steal to take across the border and then smuggle people into the US, and on several occasions the coyotes have tried to elude police and been involved in accidents that result in the injury and death of the people that have paid them to get into the US. The kidnappings and murders here are related to both the human smuggling and the drug trafficing, and as I stated earlier it is because the US has narrowed the porus borders to where AZ is the main point to go through the revolving door of illegal entry.

Do I think the the bill/law (I say that because it is not a law yet and won't be until some time in August) is right? No, it's flawed in parts. Does it draw attention to the problem? Yes it does. Will illegal immigration finally be addressed? Probably so, but when it is it will be attacked just as this issue is.

I am not opposed to immigration to the US. My own family immigrated on both my parents sides in the mid 1920's and they did so legaly. If you want a guest worker program so that these people can come to the US and work for a predetermined period of time and then return to their home country for a period of time before returning, then let your reps know this. There has to be some type of reform. I'm not big on giving amnesty to all of them, but give the honest ones a chance to become US citizens. As it is right now some of them don't. If they get caught, we deport them, and less than six months later they are back.

Also, I am not part of the birthers or tea partiers. I leave that up to the people that may have too much time on their hands.

A good and reasonable post. I hope the attention spurs some similarly reasonable federal response. Something happens when local folks go Federal. I remember back when one of the major oil company execs was tapped to head the FEO (Federal Energy O??? Richardson??) back under Nixon and Ford. He continued the parade of former oil folks who seemed to forget the issues they once held dear. I suppose the picture gets larger for them and they find the world isn't what they thought it was. Just like the rest of us.