What is Going On in Arizona?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes, Guido, you too.  Get to your corner.  Make it a threesome....

[nathanm]

Here is an MSNBC Headline on the Arizona law: "Law Makes it a Crime to be Illegal Immigrant". I guess there are law-abiding illegals out there.

As I recall, under federal law the crime is crossing the border, not being here. (although being here is evidence of the crime, it is not the crime)

[Conan71]

As I recall, under federal law the crime is crossing the border, not being here. (although being here is evidence of the crime, it is not the crime)

Over-staying a visa or not having a visa or other valid immigration documents to start with is illegal aside from subsequent criminal acts on the part of some like tax fraud, Medicare/Medicaid fraud, possessing bogus documentation, creating a fictitious SSN, etc. 

[fotd]

Over-staying a visa or not having a visa or other valid immigration documents to start with is illegal aside from subsequent criminal acts on the part of some like tax fraud, Medicare/Medicaid fraud, possessing bogus documentation, creating a fictitious SSN, etc. 

They're all guilty of that?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Wow!  Conan - we agree on something!  Did hell freeze over last night and I missed it???

Being present here without proper permission is very definitely illegal.  It just isn't enforced well.

And yeah, fotd, most of them are guilty of that.  Because they can't get legal papers, since they are here illegally.  As in criminally.

[nathanm]

Over-staying a visa or not having a visa or other valid immigration documents to start with is illegal aside from subsequent criminal acts on the part of some like tax fraud, Medicare/Medicaid fraud, possessing bogus documentation, creating a fictitious SSN, etc. 

Yes, we do essentially force people who commit the crime of illegal entry to also commit other crimes to remain here, although by no means does everyone. It's kinda ridiculous we make it so hard for them to pay taxes. They pretty much are left with a choice between taking money under the table or using a false SSN. That is the sort of crime that could be eliminated by simply changing the laws. Their working, in and of itself does not pose any threat, so those laws only serve to enable employers to exploit illegal immigrants. More effective law would penalize employers, or even better liberalize temporary work visas.

In any event, mere presence in this country is not criminal in and of itself. Unless it's somewhere other than Title 8.

[Conan71]

You choose to ignore my posts which differ from this completely and instead try to corral me into a bad person picture. The tone of your lecture seems intoxicated.


Well, maybe the remaining gang will buy into your tactic. It lack's the thinking man's defense.

Wrong guess. If anyone is intoxicated based on the posts it's you.  In regards made by others on a different thread today, I'm trying to steer the conversation somewhere positive.  I'm training right now no alcohol for me.  Just steroids & blood doping /sarc

[fotd]

You can send a love letter to Gov. Jan Brewer and tell her what you think about the Arizona GOP's attempt to swipe the November election here: http://action.restorefairness.org/o/6023/t/7236/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=2752

[heironymouspasparagus]

Don't know about section 8, but it IS illegal to be here without valid visa, green card, passport, etc.  And jail time can be used as enforcement, but never is if Latin American and working in agriculture, construction, family childcare (nanny) or housekeeping. 

All the jobs many citizens won't do, so we invite people from the south to do them.

[Conan71]

Yes, we do essentially force people who commit the crime of illegal entry to also commit other crimes to remain here, although by no means does everyone. It's kinda ridiculous we make it so hard for them to pay taxes. They pretty much are left with a choice between taking money under the table or using a false SSN. That is the sort of crime that could be eliminated by simply changing the laws. Their working, in and of itself does not pose any threat, so those laws only serve to enable employers to exploit illegal immigrants. More effective law would penalize employers, or even better liberalize temporary work visas.

In any event, mere presence in this country is not criminal in and of itself. Unless it's somewhere other than Title 8.

Don't you think that's a bit like saying the police *forced* a robbery suspect to run a red light and forced him to hit another vehicle (hit & run) which killed two people (negligent manslaughter) all because the criminal was in fear of being caught a punished for his original crime which was holding up a Shell station for $200?

[nathanm]

Don't know about section 8, but it IS illegal to be here without valid visa, green card, passport, etc.  And jail time can be used as enforcement, but never is if Latin American and working in agriculture, construction, family childcare (nanny) or housekeeping. 

Please provide a citation. As best I can tell, it is criminal to enter improperly, falsify documents, or transport someone illegally across the border, but other than that, you're pretty much just deportable, and can only be jailed for the purpose of deportation.

[nathanm]

Don't you think that's a bit like saying the police *forced* a robbery suspect to run a red light and forced him to hit another vehicle (hit & run) which killed two people (negligent manslaughter) all because the criminal was in fear of being caught a punished for his original crime which was holding up a Shell station for $200?

Not really. People must work to eat. People need not rob a Shell to that end. Moreover, there's a big difference morally between illegally entering the country and robbing a business. Penalties should be commensurate with the harm to society.

Also, what prevents illegal aliens from paying taxes in an above-board way is government policy, not fear of apprehension. It's simply not possible for an alien to get the correct numbers that allow them to do so. It's sort of like back in the 30s when they first made marijuana illegal by requiring those who possessed it to purchase a tax stamp, then refusing to issue any such stamps.

[fotd]

Don't know about section 8, but it IS illegal to be here without valid visa, green card, passport, etc.  And jail time can be used as enforcement, but never is if Latin American and working in agriculture, construction, family childcare (nanny) or housekeeping.  

All the jobs many citizens won't do, so we invite people from the south to do them.

From the east and the west  to the north and south.....they come from all over.

Based on your attitude, you should fix your sensory deprivation. Have a Marshall's. It's so obvious,Trainy.

[Red Arrow]

...but other than that, you're pretty much just deportable, and can only be jailed for the purpose of deportation.

I've been under the impression that someone had to do something illegal to be subject to jail and/or deportation.  If it is legal to just be here, how is deportation justified?

[fotd]

I've been under the impression that someone had to do something illegal to be subject to jail and/or deportation.  If it is legal to just be here, how is deportation justified?