Brookings Institute - State of Metropolitan America

[rwarn17588]

Artist, you are missing some broad points. First off, religion, church, and spirituality are different things entirely and not necessarily interchangeable.  If you think I'm advocating people going to church to fix inner city school problems you are way off.  Point is, heads of families need to revert to spiritual values which put others before their needs and wants. And make the success of their offspring more important than their next sexual conquest.

Since being spiritual is inherently an internal thing, when you get right down to it, isn't it primarily self-driven?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here. But if you're deriding selfishness and advocating spirituality (which is a self-driven thing), it seems to be a distinction with very little difference.

[Conan71]

Since being spiritual is inherently an internal thing, when you get right down to it, isn't it primarily self-driven?

I'm not trying to be a smartass here. But if you're deriding selfishness and advocating spirituality (which is a self-driven thing), it seems to be a distinction with very little difference.

There's a major difference between being self-driven and self-centered, not even the same concepts, unless you apply it to someone being very motivated to be selfish. 

[Cats Cats Cats]

Well said Godboko. It takes a balanced approach to meeting the needs of both the student and the community. Tulsa Tech and TCC provide even more outlets. If I remember right, the IED is a personalized curriculum plan?

Trog, I get the feeling you may not have traversed far within the school system or don't have kids in them at all. The greatest indicators of success in school, any public or private school, are parents' education, parents' income, and parents' involvement. You have a better chance of seeing your child succeed anywhere with all three of those. The chances decrease as each element is subtracted. That's just reality.

My third son sorely tried the patience of several different schools until finally settling out of court so to speak. He got a GED. He shared that experience with the children of doctors, lawyers and involved parents. I know this because we all struggled together to find some way to help them perform. The system had not yet embraced the magnet concept across the board during his tenure. He's fine though.

I don't have any kids.  You are right.  You are saying that it all comes down to the parents, but then you say that TPS is better than any of the other public schools.  Which if it is all the parents involvement, wouldn't make sense.

BTW, I agree it is the parents involvement btw (that's by the way, not Booker T Washington)..  But some teachers can inspire students.  (which is were more pay can help)

[Conan71]

But some teachers can inspire students.  (which is were more pay can help)

How would more pay help teachers inspire students?  I think teaching is like art, it's one of those things which comes more naturally to some than others.  The really good ones have a true passion for teaching and for the kids.

I've recieved merit-based pay for pretty much my entire working career either via straight commission or a salary/bonus situation tied directly to my sales and/or the sales performance of people I've managed.  I could see where a financial incentive with a measurable result (aggregate class scores?) might motivate some teachers to step it up a notch. 

Simply offering more money for the sake of offering more money still doesn't make much sense to me as to how it will improve outcomes. 

I've had some teachers who were incredibly brilliant, but they could not relate to students.  They lacked the interpersonal skills to make class very interesting and they could not relate the topic well.  I had an algebra teacher who was an absolute whiz at math, but she simply sucked when it came to trying to explain the process we were supposed to be learning.  The ones I learned the most from had patience, took a personal interest in the students, and they had a passion for what they did.

[waterboy]

I don't have any kids.  You are right.  You are saying that it all comes down to the parents, but then you say that TPS is better than any of the other public schools.  Which if it is all the parents involvement, wouldn't make sense.

BTW, I agree it is the parents involvement btw (that's by the way, not Booker T Washington)..  But some teachers can inspire students.  (which is were more pay can help)

I don't mean to say that your remarks are without value because you have no kids. Simply that the perspective changes when you become responsible for another beings education. You get into it deeper.

My wording is important. Those elements of parental demographics and involvement are good predictors of success in school. Certainly not the only elements necessary. I transcended a lack of those elements to graduate college and I'm sure others have as well.

Also note that when the magnet program started they had no problem signing up teachers to go over into the north side of town during a racially charged era to become a part of this new program. It is still considered a "plum" assignment. Pay was practically irrelevant though I do think there was an increase associated.

[Cats Cats Cats]

How would more pay help teachers inspire students?  I think teaching is like art, it's one of those things which comes more naturally to some than others.  The really good ones have a true passion for teaching and for the kids.

I've recieved merit-based pay for pretty much my entire working career either via straight commission or a salary/bonus situation tied directly to my sales and/or the sales performance of people I've managed.  I could see where a financial incentive with a measurable result (aggregate class scores?) might motivate some teachers to step it up a notch.  

Simply offering more money for the sake of offering more money still doesn't make much sense to me as to how it will improve outcomes.  

I've had some teachers who were incredibly brilliant, but they could not relate to students.  They lacked the interpersonal skills to make class very interesting and they could not relate the topic well.  I had an algebra teacher who was an absolute whiz at math, but she simply sucked when it came to trying to explain the process we were supposed to be learning.  The ones I learned the most from had patience, took a personal interest in the students, and they had a passion for what they did.

I meant that in the sense that more $ for (some) teachers would mean more people would consider becoming a teacher.  If being a teacher paid as much as a doctor, we would have more competition and we would have the best teachers in the world.  No, paying the teachers now double or triple doesn't make them better teachers.  

[Conan71]

I meant that in the sense that more $ for (some) teachers would mean more people would consider becoming a teacher.  If being a teacher paid as much as a doctor, we would have more competition and we would have the best teachers in the world.  No, paying the teachers now double or triple doesn't make them better teachers.  

Thanks for explaining, makes sense.  Unfortunately we will never put the same salary priorities on education as our health, it would appear.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Thanks for explaining, makes sense.  Unfortunately we will never put the same salary priorities on education as our health, it would appear.

One of my favorite teachers in school was a guy who was tired of working for the oil companies because of the stress.  So he became a teacher. 

[Conan71]

One of my favorite teachers in school was a guy who was tired of working for the oil companies because of the stress.  So he became a teacher. 

Sounds like my HS Biology & Chemistry teacher.  He had worked as a chemist for AMOCO.  Very, very odd duck, great scientist, nice guy, but not the world's best at relating that high IQ.

Here's an interesting take on why more people should consider something other than a bachelor's degree program:

"The notion that a four-year degree is essential for real success is being challenged by a growing number of economists, policy analysts and academics. They say more Americans should consider other options such as technical training or two-year schools, which have been embraced in Europe for decades.

As evidence, experts cite rising student debt, stagnant graduation rates and a struggling job market flooded with overqualified degree-holders. They pose a fundamental question: Do too many students go to college?

"College is what every parent wants for their child," said Martin Scaglione, president and chief operating officer of work force development for ACT, the Iowa-based not-for-profit best known for its college entrance exam. "The reality is, they may not be ready for college."

President Barack Obama wants to restore the country's status as the world leader in the proportion of citizens with college degrees. The U.S. now ranks 10th among industrial nations, behind Canada, Japan, Korea and several European countries.

But federal statistics show that just 36 percent of full-time students starting college in 2001 earned a four-year degree within that allotted time. Even with an extra two years to finish, that group's graduation rate increased only to 57 percent.

Spending more time in school also means greater overall student debt. The average student debt load in 2008 was $23,200 — a nearly $5,000 increase over five years. Two-thirds of students graduating from four-year schools owe money on student loans.

And while the unemployment rate for college graduates still trails the rate for high school graduates (4.9 percent versus 10.8 percent), the figure has more than doubled in less than two years.

"A four-year degree in business — what's that get you?" asked Karl Christopher, a placement counselor at the Columbia Area Career Center vocational program. "A shift supervisor position at a store in the mall."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20100513_19_0_COLUMB610696

[Cats Cats Cats]

Totally depends on the major.  But a lot of companies will not even look at you without a degree.  You could be the smartest person in the world but wouldn't hire you for some positions.

[Conan71]

Totally depends on the major.  But a lot of companies will not even look at you without a degree.  You could be the smartest person in the world but wouldn't hire you for some positions.

I don't disagree.  The article was simply stating that we also need highly skilled trades and that may prove more durable over the long haul considering recent and current unemployment numbers.  I think sgrizzle stated this the other day, it's amazing how what you wind up doing on a job can have very little to do with what you studied in college.

[Red Arrow]

Sometimes a college degree means nothing more than you are trainable and have the discipline to finish something.

[RecycleMichael]

Sometimes a college degree means nothing more than you are trainable and have the discipline to finish something.

Very well said.