Brookings Institute - State of Metropolitan America

[SXSW]

This is an interesting report done by the Brookings Institute.  I don't know how biased or true it is but it shows the major metropolitan areas of the country, which Tulsa is one, and lists them according to their growth potential, diversity, and education level.  Tulsa does poorly and is in the same category as Detroit, Memphis, Birmingham, Cleveland, Grand Rapids, and Wichita (and several others).  According to the report we are an 'Industrial Core' with 'low growth, low diversity, and low educational attainment'.  A description:

Their populations are slower-growing, less diverse, and less educated than national averages, and significantly older than the large metropolitan average. A remaining industrial base combined with lack of diverse in-migration to these metro areas has kept educational and wage inequalities in check. But these metropolitan areas lost population in the aggregate during the 2000s, yet still saw growth in their outer suburbs, even as their cities and high-density suburbs declined in size.

Do you think this accurately describes Tulsa?  I'm not so sure.  Our growth has been steady, and the city itself grew to just under 400,000 after losing population in the early 2000s, and all of suburbs have seen significant growth.  We still struggle with attracting more diversity and retaining more younger, educated workers.  Education is one of our biggest problems with TPS struggling and a lack of public higher education available.

Do you agree with the assessment?  What can the city do to improve these categories?

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/Programs/Metro/state_of_metro_america/metro_america_overview.pdf

[Conan71]

The characterization is inaccurate, IMO.  I also have to disagree that we lack in edukashun.  20 years ago I could have agreed with that statement and the most obvious lacking asset we do not have is a four year public university program, but taking a look at what we do have:

Two growing medical school programs which are also training not just doctors but PA's, doctorate level PT's, RN's, LPN's.

One of the more respected private universities in the nation (once referred to about 15 years ago as the "Harvard of the midwest" or the plains or some such thing) which keeps growing

Another private university

A multiple location JC which serves all geographic and demograpic parts of the community

NSU Broken Arrow and OSU Tulsa offer bachelor's and higher level degree programs.

We aren't under-served by higher ed, but our paradigm and apparently that of the people around the country to consider such things is that we are still under-served.  Is a four year public U really that big a stumbling block?  We missed the opportunity in the 1980's when UCAT was being built to combine it and TCC (nee TJC) into one four year school.

[Rico]

In the past I would have not liked being compared to Birmingham..

However, being from there I have been following the City through the Birmingham Weekly. Similar to Urban Tulsa.

http://www.bhamweekly.com/

B-Ham has changed considerably. I noticed when Eric Clapton played Tulsa the show prior to that was Birmingham.

IMO Brookings had more credibility in years past.

[nathanm]

I think they miss the mark regarding "educational attainment." While it is true that we lack a large four year public college, we're pretty competitive regarding percentage of the workforce with a college degree.

Sadly for my pride, those probably are the cities we should be grouped with, however. Not that there's anything wrong with Birmingham. What I've seen of it is actually reasonably nice.

[TheArtist]

I do see Tulsas schools as being one of the biggest hinderances for Tulsa's future growth.  

As someone who doesn't have kids I have never really thought much about it.  But after having watched several years of comments on City Data Forums, from family after family after family moving to the Tulsa area, asking about Tulsa's schools, then finding out they are bad and then choosing the suburbs, or a different city all together..... I have realized its a very real problem. The schools have to be fixed.  

The other comment I see all the time is along the lines of.  "Where is there a hotel that I can stay at and be in a walkable area with shopping and restaurants?"   "I am considering moving to Tulsa for a job and will be looking for a place to live. I want to be in an urban area where I can walk to lots of things."  "What are some of the affordable, urban (see pedestrian friendly) housing areas and options,,, can you send me a link?"  Then often times these questions are followed by. "How are the schools in these areas?"

We suck at both urban living options, and schools.  And the suburbs offer a lot more in the way of new suburban living options, and good schools.  

Point 2.....

Our suburbs compared to many places are practically stagnant growth wise.  It APPEARS to us "stagnant Tulsa" that they are rapidly growing.  But folks they arent. Just look at some of the growth rates and numbers for most Texas suburbs for a reality check.


Detroit has great suburbs with good schools. But its an uphill battle for them to get people to move to the area because of the central cities rep. Tulsa is getting to be know nationally as a high crime city as well. Not good.

I do think things are getting better for Tulsa. We are starting to position ourselves to be very competitive on many fronts. The urban living thing is starting to right itself.  Finally having a downtown that is returning to life is gonna help.  Having neat things to do, great river parks, good entertainment options. etc. act as good selling points.

But we still need to work on our higher ed and focus on growing key industries.

As for the schools, I think we need to at least get a few top notch, public, middle and high schools in the city that we can point to, to get and keep more families in the city.   More charter schools perhaps?  Public schools voucher program?

[waterboy]

I've always wondered just where folks get the idea that our public schools are so bad. Is it the test scores? They usually show most of the area schools right around the national average. Some a little better, some worse and some outstanding. And that doesn't seem to matter whether its suburban or urban. Since private schools can cherry pick and by nature are populated with a better income demographic, it isn't right to even mention them. My experience though, is that their product, other than Holland Hall, isn't any different.

My guess is that many people simply don't have kids in school, aren't aware of some of the outstanding schools in the area (Lee, Eliot, Mayo, Thoreau, Carver, Booker T, Edison) and simply latch on to a brand like Jenks without doing much analysis. Sort of like Chevy vs. Toyota.

So what gives?  Why are public schools always the target instead of the general low quality of educational attainment that the whole state seems to have?

[SXSW]

I think many of the TPS schools are pretty good, and two of the best ones (Lee and Eliot) are in areas that are seeing more infill and will continue to see infill.  Carver is a great middle school for midtown, Booker T is one of the best high schools in the country, and Edison is a very good high school as well.  I think TPS gets an undeserved bad reputation.

TU is definitely an asset but unfortunately it's just too small.  I'd really like to see TU add more students, especially international and graduate students.  TU only has 4,200 students; I really think they could have twice that amount and still be a selective university like Vanderbilt which has over 12,000 students.  I would like to see TU expand more to the west and embrace the 6th Street corridor and 11th Street.  8,000+ students at a Top 100 national university is a great thing for any city and could really give Tulsa a boost.  TU's new medical school, in conjunction with OU, is exciting.

And then you have OSU-Tulsa which could easily expand to at least 15,000 students if the OSU administration would allow it.  I want to see that campus work in tandem with Stillwater, offer a number of undergrad degrees different or similar to ones in Stillwater but retain more of a graduate/research/health sciences focus.  I'd like to see the bulk of non-agriculture graduate courses now in Stillwater moved to Tulsa and the majority of non-agriculture research done in downtown.  The OSU Health Sciences Center has the potential to grow and it would be really beneficial for downtown to have TU, OU, and OSU all use the current OSU Med Center as their teaching hospital similar to the OU Med Center in OKC.  The growth around the OU Med Center is astounding and nearly equals in size and square footage another entire downtown; just imagine if that same growth happened around a combined 'University Med Center' in west downtown Tulsa and with it medical research and biotech opportunities.

Sorry for the rant, but I really think higher education is one of the keys for Tulsa's future growth.  Having more students in the city, especially those from other states and countries, is very important as many of those students will stay here.  As far as more walkable, urban places go I really think PlaniTulsa will help tremendously in that regard and open the door for developers to do more urban, mixed-use in downtown and midtown.  

[we vs us]

Really glad you caught this and posted it, SXSW.  Even better is the description of Tulsa which I missed entirely because I got sucked into the nifty US map and its data overlays.  

It's an interesting description because it describes a city still caught in a "white flight" dynamic . . . which is something I'd thought America cities in general had reversed.  I mean, we all know that Tulsa has a lot of retro tendencies, but that's a total throwback to urban culture of the 60's-80's.  It also links that to certain types of local economies (predominantly blue collar) and limited education.  It's a pretty dense paragraph with some major assumptions baked in.

[SXSW]

Really glad you caught this and posted it, SXSW.  Even better is the description of Tulsa which I missed entirely because I got sucked into the nifty US map and its data overlays.  

It's an interesting description because it describes a city still caught in a "white flight" dynamic . . . which is something I'd thought America cities in general had reversed.  I mean, we all know that Tulsa has a lot of retro tendencies, but that's a total throwback to urban culture of the 60's-80's.  It also links that to certain types of local economies (predominantly blue collar) and limited education.  It's a pretty dense paragraph with some major assumptions baked in.

I think the data is outdated and describes Tulsa in the early 2000s when we lost so many jobs and the suburbs really started to grow, especially with more retail/restaurants (part of what caused the sales tax crisis we're in now).  During the energy boom from 2006-2008 Tulsa made up lost ground and began to grow again before cooling off with the recession last year.  I think it was during the mid 2000s before the energy boom that many thought Tulsa would continue to lose population but the most recent figures which Michael posted show the opposite where Tulsa has actually passed its all-time high set in 2000 and continues to grow.  Therefore I personally do not think Tulsa should be grouped with Detroit, Rochester, Louisville, Birmingham, Cleveland, etc. because we are much better off than all of those cities.  If anything we should be on par with Oklahoma City, Omaha, Des Moines, Nashville, Kansas City, Little Rock, Columbia, Indianapolis, etc. i.e. the New Heartland cities.

[TheArtist]

I've always wondered just where folks get the idea that our public schools are so bad. Is it the test scores? They usually show most of the area schools right around the national average. Some a little better, some worse and some outstanding. And that doesn't seem to matter whether its suburban or urban. Since private schools can cherry pick and by nature are populated with a better income demographic, it isn't right to even mention them. My experience though, is that their product, other than Holland Hall, isn't any different.

My guess is that many people simply don't have kids in school, aren't aware of some of the outstanding schools in the area (Lee, Eliot, Mayo, Thoreau, Carver, Booker T, Edison) and simply latch on to a brand like Jenks without doing much analysis. Sort of like Chevy vs. Toyota.

So what gives?  Why are public schools always the target instead of the general low quality of educational attainment that the whole state seems to have?

People arent looking at the state or nation as a whole when they are moving, or thinking of moving, to Tulsa. They are looking at Tulsas schools and comparing them to the ones in BA, Owasso and Jenks.

[custosnox]

As a parent with four kids in TPS, I personally think that one of the largest problems with the schools is the parents.  I try to stay involved, I push my kids, and if the school calls me I'm there.  However I seem to be in the minority.  It's hard to get kids to do things when the parents don't care, which reflects onto the kids attitudes in school.

[Conan71]

As a parent with four kids in TPS, I personally think that one of the largest problems with the schools is the parents.  I try to stay involved, I push my kids, and if the school calls me I'm there.  However I seem to be in the minority.  It's hard to get kids to do things when the parents don't care, which reflects onto the kids attitudes in school.

B..bu..but, I thoght it takes a village to raise a child.  I posit this every few months, and it's always shot down with some idea that we don't spend enough money on education.  We spend plenty, it's the parents who don't give a smile that's the problem.  Kudos on staying involved.  I credit that for the success of my daughters and they are from a "broken home".

[YoungTulsan]

It's an interesting description because it describes a city still caught in a "white flight" dynamic . . . which is something I'd thought America cities in general had reversed.

The people who assume TPS is nothing but bad schools is a prime example of "white flight" going strong here.  People judge the school system less on the opportunity to receive a good education and more on the fear of their kids being in the same school as minorities.   This is also an unspoken prejudice when we talk about the "good parts" of town, i.e. a new poster to this forum says he is looking for a nice place to live, and is immediately told which parts of town NOT to go near.

[Cats Cats Cats]

The people who assume TPS is nothing but bad schools is a prime example of "white flight" going strong here.  People judge the school system less on the opportunity to receive a good education and more on the fear of their kids being in the same school as minorities.   This is also an unspoken prejudice when we talk about the "good parts" of town, i.e. a new poster to this forum says he is looking for a nice place to live, and is immediately told which parts of town NOT to go near.

Enlighten us on the good schools.  (I am not saying they are all bad, I just want the names of "the good ones"

[Conan71]

Enlighten us on the good schools.  (I am not saying they are all bad, I just want the names of "the good ones"

See Waterboy's post above.  There are more good schools than those listed as well, but it's a great thumbnail list of some outstanding schools within TPS