And the hits keep on coming: 119 Downtown

[SXSW]

I have heard they are looking at the possibility of doing apartments now.  Remember these are the same developers of the Philtower Lofts and those have been a success. 

[carltonplace]

Conan, I know lots of people in their 20s and 30s that live downtown and love it. They live in places like The Blair or in lofts in old buildings on Cheyenne and the RR (like the Artist described...very spartan), or in garage apartments in Riverview (mine for example) or Childers or Owen.

They want to be downtown and they aren't that picky about the space, they are more concerned about it not being too spendy.

[Conan71]

Conan, I know lots of people in their 20s and 30s that live downtown and love it. They live in places like The Blair or in lofts in old buildings on Cheyenne and the RR (like the Artist described...very spartan), or in garage apartments in Riverview (mine for example) or Childers or Owen.

They want to be downtown and they aren't that picky about the space, they are more concerned about it not being too spendy.

That's more what I was getting at.  Is a $300K to $900K condo simply out of reach or demand of the demographic which actually wants to live in downtown?  I wouldn't mind living down there myself, I really should be a perfect candidate: empty nester, travel a fair amount and when I am in town I'm usually either A) working or B) on a bicycle somewhere.  I don't have a lot of time to tend a yard or worry about maintenance issues.  Fortunately for me, my house has been really trouble-free in terms of maintenance.

The main thing which keeps me out of a condo scenario is I do like the relative independence of not living on top of, below, or a 6" wall from my neighbors.  I like having that small plot of land and a place for my pets to be able to roam and do their thing.  I lived in Central Park back when it was Center Plaza and it was apartments, I loved living in the CBD.  Marriage and children dictated needing something larger.

[carltonplace]

I think you're right...$300 to $900K is just too high right now, especially in a Tulsa housing market where that kind of cheddar can command a large house (even in Maple Ridge).

I'm not saying that mid to upper level living isn't wanted at all in DT: both The Mayo and Philtower have done well. I know a several of the permanent residents of the Mayo that have large apartments, moved from south Tulsa and don't want to be anywhere else. But they didn't outlay 300K+ to move in.

[Cats Cats Cats]

$200 to $450k is probably the right spot to be at.  Of course, I wouldn't want to pay $450k for a living space and then $1k a month in dues for the rest of the time I owned it.

[Conan71]

$200 to $450k is probably the right spot to be at.  Of course, I wouldn't want to pay $450k for a living space and then $1k a month in dues for the rest of the time I owned it.

Apparently not since the pre-sell didn't achieve what they needed it to.  This isn't NYC and we don't have the sort of income base which will allow a newly-minted college graduate to afford $2000 to $4000 per month for housing.

The kind of people who can afford that are likely well into their 30's or 40's and most likely have kids and pets.  Not exactly the right demographic for downtown condo dwellers.  At least not in this part of the country.

[rdj]

The Mayo Hotel & Residences is on a waiting list.  Last I heard it was about fifteen deep.  In addition, the Tribune is building a second phase.  Unaware of how the Mayo Building residences are doing.  In short, rental units priced a bit above a the going rate in town will lease up.

The new mortgage rules killed this project.  A buyer cannot be approved for a traditional (ie Fannie Mae conforming) mortgage loan in a multi-tenant property until at least 50% is occupied or under contract.  This is the reason the 119 project was structured as such.  It is hard to convince enough people to put money down on a concept that large and foreign to most Tulsans with no promise of every actually living there.  This new rule has even affected the projects north of Cherry St.  Those "lofts" are considered multi-unit and buyer cannot get traditional financing regardless of the down payment or income levels.  They either have to have in-house local bank financing (rare), owner carry (the majority of those projects are bank owned now or the owners are highly leveraged) or pay cash.

[we vs us]

The Mayo Hotel & Residences is on a waiting list.  Last I heard it was about fifteen deep.  In addition, the Tribune is building a second phase.  Unaware of how the Mayo Building residences are doing.  In short, rental units priced a bit above a the going rate in town will lease up.

The new mortgage rules killed this project.  A buyer cannot be approved for a traditional (ie Fannie Mae conforming) mortgage loan in a multi-tenant property until at least 50% is occupied or under contract.  This is the reason the 119 project was structured as such.  It is hard to convince enough people to put money down on a concept that large and foreign to most Tulsans with no promise of every actually living there.  This new rule has even affected the projects north of Cherry St.  Those "lofts" are considered multi-unit and buyer cannot get traditional financing regardless of the down payment or income levels.  They either have to have in-house local bank financing (rare), owner carry (the majority of those projects are bank owned now or the owners are highly leveraged) or pay cash.

You bring up an excellent point, which is that one of the upsides of the credit bubble is that a lot of that money went to refurbish and renovate downtowns across the country.  For a time, it made the New Urbanism movement much more affordable. Now that we've retrenched, though, it's gonna slow down all of our progress.  Possibly drastically.

[DTowner]

The Mayo Hotel & Residences is on a waiting list.  Last I heard it was about fifteen deep.  In addition, the Tribune is building a second phase.  Unaware of how the Mayo Building residences are doing.  In short, rental units priced a bit above a the going rate in town will lease up.

The new mortgage rules killed this project.  A buyer cannot be approved for a traditional (ie Fannie Mae conforming) mortgage loan in a multi-tenant property until at least 50% is occupied or under contract.  This is the reason the 119 project was structured as such.  It is hard to convince enough people to put money down on a concept that large and foreign to most Tulsans with no promise of every actually living there.  This new rule has even affected the projects north of Cherry St.  Those "lofts" are considered multi-unit and buyer cannot get traditional financing regardless of the down payment or income levels.  They either have to have in-house local bank financing (rare), owner carry (the majority of those projects are bank owned now or the owners are highly leveraged) or pay cash.

I think that demonstrates that buying in downtown at the present time is too risky for most, especially that those prices.  In the best of times, buying is a leap of faith that Tulsa's downtown dream will become reality.  And these are not the best of times, particularly in the housing market.  Renting offers many a way to try out urban living to see if they like it and/or to see how downtown develops over the next couple of years.  Afterall, most folks living in Tulsa have not lived in a real urban environment and while they might think it will be great, don't really know until they try it.  Also, urban living might be great for those single or recently married, but might not be as attractive as those same folks get married or have children.  In all these cases, renting is low risk - if you don't like it or as your family changes, you can easily move on.  The resale market in downtown is always likely to be much more limited than single family homes, even if you aren't competing with new developments.  I would prefer to see developers focus on a variety of apartments and not condos in order to develop the housing stock/market one step at a time.

[TheArtist]

  How is the Mayo Building project coming along?  It seems to have dropped off the radar and you don't hear anything about it.  Are they done yet?  Have many been sold/rented?

[ZYX]

  How is the Mayo Building project coming along?  It seems to have dropped off the radar and you don't hear anything about it.  Are they done yet?  Have many been sold/rented?

From what I've heard they were finished a while ago and are occupied.

[YoungTulsan]

I saw 119 Downtown and thought it was a weather report.

[TheTed]

I live downtown, and I sure as h--- would not pay big bucks to live here. I toured the Mayo 420 bldg last Mayfest and I was just flabbergasted at the prices.

I can't imagine that many people are wanting to pay $1200/month for a one bedroom. The super nice kitchen is not really a selling point in urban environs. Neither is the extra space.

You live downtown, you eat out a lot (don't care about a spacious kitchen with fancy fixtures/appliances). You don't care about extra space. All you do is work/eat/sleep/go out. When would you enjoy this extravagant living quarters? And if you did want to spend significant time at home, you'd probably choose a residential part of town.


The kind of people who want to live downtown have plenty of options (cherry st/sobo/etc). They're not paying big bucks to live downtown unless they just have money to urinate away, and most don't.

[Red Arrow]

You live downtown, you eat out a lot (don't care about a spacious kitchen with fancy fixtures/appliances). You don't care about extra space. All you do is work/eat/sleep/go out. When would you enjoy this extravagant living quarters?

That sounds a lot like when I lived in a college dorm and in the 4-man-room Navy barracks.

[rdj]

Madison Ave, homebuilders, commodity salesman and the government have done a masterful job of convincing America that owning a home is the only way to achieve wealth & prosperity.  I would assert that the more transient nature of today's society has altered this dream.  For many owning a home is one of the worst things they'll ever do.