Illegals Leaving Arizona

[Gaspar]

Nothing, none, no and no.

I don't have an issue with how the law (now amended) is written. I think the motivations of the authors of the bill are suspect, and I believe that ultimately it will do nothing to curb violent crime or help secure the borders.


I am all for the feds stepping it up. Obviously something needs to happen. This isn't it though.

Only time will tell. . . For now it seems to be having an effect.  Illegals are leaving Arizona.   It has also forced the admin to make this a priority, so that too is causing a positive effect.  looks like a win/win for Arizona.

I'm glad you "don't have a problem with how the law is written."  For some reason it seemed like you did. 

So your concern is the motivation.  Broken down that would mean the:

Logical Reasons - influx in illegal alien population, increase in crime associated with this population, threat to legal residents, and tax on law enforcement and services.

Emotional Reasons - hate, prejudice, hostile atmosphere, etc.

Of these what is your predominant concern.

[azbadpuppy]

Only time will tell. . . For now it seems to be having an effect.  Illegals are leaving Arizona.   It has also forced the admin to make this a priority, so that too is causing a positive effect.  looks like a win/win for Arizona.

I'm glad you "don't have a problem with how the law is written."  For some reason it seemed like you did.  

The law became less offensive once it was amended to its current wording. The authors obviously knew the original wording would land them in trouble, so they changed it. I think the 'reasonable suspicion' part is still too broad, but its now overall worded better than it was originally.

So your concern is the motivation.  Broken down that would mean the:

Logical Reasons - influx in illegal alien population, increase in crime associated with this population, threat to legal residents, and tax on law enforcement and services.

Emotional Reasons - hate, prejudice, hostile atmosphere, etc.

Of these what is your predominant concern.

Actually I said the motivation is suspect. Check out the author Kris Kobach as well as the law peddler Senator Pearce's backgrounds and their ties to white supremacist groups. Interesting to say the least.  

Now all the hoopla (on both sides) is obviously just more political grandstanding in an election year. FBI statistics have proven the claims of increased crime false. Arizona is the safest it has been in years. I live here and feel no 'threat' whatsoever. The tax argument is mostly false also. Most undocumented workers still pay income tax. Think of how many hotel, restaurant, construction and landscaping employees there are in the country- many, many are undocumented. They all still have taxes witheld. The big difference is that they are unable to file (and wouldn't file anyway) and therefore cannot claim a refund.

So much for logic. That then leaves us with your so called 'emotional reasons'.......

[Red Arrow]

An interesting side effect of using a stolen Social Security number is that the real owner of the SS number can be held liable for tax on the income earned by the bogus worker. Money may be withheld for the bogus worker but the real owner won't know about it and won't claim it on their return.  There may also be insufficient withholding when the progressive nature of our tax is considered.  (Bump you up a bracket.) The total income for that SS number will be subject to tax.  It happened to a co-worker and it took a l-o-n-g time to get it straightened out.

[nathanm]

An interesting side effect of using a stolen Social Security number is that the real owner of the SS number can be held liable for tax on the income earned by the bogus worker. Money may be withheld for the bogus worker but the real owner won't know about it and won't claim it on their return.  There may also be insufficient withholding when the progressive nature of our tax is considered.  (Bump you up a bracket.) The total income for that SS number will be subject to tax.  It happened to a co-worker and it took a l-o-n-g time to get it straightened out.

It's only a real issue (other than the PITA factor, which I admit is a big issue!) if it actually does bump the victim up into the next tax bracket, as the person using the stolen SSN is having tax withheld from their check.

Of course, this is yet another situation in which we are causing the problem for ourselves. If we let them get SSNs they wouldn't have to make them up and chance upon a valid number.

[Red Arrow]

It's only a real issue (other than the PITA factor, which I admit is a big issue!) if it actually does bump the victim up into the next tax bracket, as the person using the stolen SSN is having tax withheld from their check.

Remember we are dealing with the IRS, meaning you are guilty until proven innocent.  My co-worker would probably disagree with it only being a PITA factor.

[dbacks fan]

Reality check on the SSN number. I work for a local city government in the IT area. It came back to me while I was at work, and have been cleared by the FBI and the DPS in Arizona to work in the police area of the town. I was called in by the detectives in the persons crimes area because they arrested someone who was using my SSN while I am employed by a city govt. So you can think and hear that this a victimless crime, but I have been on both sides of this, called in by the police while at work, and financial screwed at the same time.

[nathanm]

Reality check on the SSN number. I work for a local city government in the IT area. It came back to me while I was at work, and have been cleared by the FBI and the DPS in Arizona to work in the police area of the town. I was called in by the detectives in the persons crimes area because they arrested someone who was using my SSN while I am employed by a city govt. So you can think and hear that this a victimless crime, but I have been on both sides of this, called in by the police while at work, and financial screwed at the same time.

I never said it was victimless, I said our law is what makes it necessary for illegal immigrants to do that sort of thing.

[Red Arrow]

My co-worker was somewhat fortunate in that the bogus worker was several states away and there were records of overlapping times which made it impossible to say the "extra money" was from a part time job.  Still took forever to straighten out.

[nathanm]

This is as good a place as any, but this morning I was flipping around the news channels. CNN was talking about the gusher. MSNBC was carrying the morning press USCG conference. Fox? A half hour interview with McCain on illegal immigration. Said interview was going along nicely until the news anchor (IOW, not one of their opinion folks) asked if McCain thought that it was "just awful" how Obama decided to deploy the 1,500 soldiers to the border mere hours after McCain met with Obama at the White House to discuss the subject. McCain, to his shame, took the bait.

I thought the bias was supposed to be solely on the opinion shows.

Of course, half an hour later they were all busy talking about whatshisname van der Sloot, so they're all worthless slugs anyway. It's sad when the weather channel has more up to date coverage of a news story than CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News.

Just thought I'd share.

[custosnox]

It's only a real issue (other than the PITA factor, which I admit is a big issue!) if it actually does bump the victim up into the next tax bracket, as the person using the stolen SSN is having tax withheld from their check.

Of course, this is yet another situation in which we are causing the problem for ourselves. If we let them get SSNs they wouldn't have to make them up and chance upon a valid number.

Just a point, the person using the SSN could very easily claim a large number of dependents to lower the amount of taxes taken out of the check, which would reflect on the actual owner of the SSN as not paying in enough for the amount earned.  Something tells me that if someone is willing to use a fake SSN that they would have no qualms about adjusting the numbers to keep as much of the money as possible. 

Also, said person with the stolen SSN can wreck all kinds of problems onto the number with criminal activities and credit activities.  I have had my info stolen some time back.  Luckily the only damage was a set of tools bought on my credit from a tool truck.  Still, it took me years to get that straightened out.  It can get real nasty.

[nathanm]

It can get real nasty.

No doubt. That's why it annoys me to no end that we don't at least make an attempt to limit the collateral damage.

[Gaspar]

I'm glad that now this whole thing is starting to cool down.  Enough people and media have now taken the time to read and analyze the legislation that Moonbats are having a harder time finding branches to latch onto.

I've heard here, and this morning in the media, the same talking points "oh well it's not so bad now that they reworded it" . . . and even some liberals are taking victory in the minor and very equatable syntax alterations.

If anything, Arizona took a problem that the President (and many before him) promised to address in his campaign, and forced him to make it a priority.  Now we just have to see if he is willing to take action. 

[Conan71]

I never said it was victimless, I said our law is what makes it necessary for illegal immigrants to do that sort of thing.

Our laws make it "necessary" for people to steal, eh?  There's a very good reason foreign countries, including Mexico  more closely monitor and enforce immigration laws and have harsh penalties for violating them.  Why don't we just repeal any statute which involves theft, because those laws encourage people to steal?  You really think it's a great idea to stand at the border and hand out SS numbers?

And, as far as "illegals are paying taxes", FWIW, the pattern is to claim as many exemptions as possible.  They wind up paying their share of SS and FICA, but can wind up under-paying federal and state taxes.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Gaspar,
The more pertinent corollary would be; "Thou shalt not steal, especially by minority!"

[dbacks fan]

That E Verify thingy is working well at keeping companies from hiring illegals

http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1301162


http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/03/20100603tempe-id-theft-abrk.html