BOK Center v. Sprint Center

[Kenosha]

This has nothing to do with architecture... I found this article to be a compelling contrast in how success is perceived by the public/media. 

Most would say that the BOK Center has been an unequivocal success thus far...presenting cultural opportunities this town would not have seen otherwise, and producing a larger than expected profit.  Having not seen the numbers produced by the Sprint Center, I wonder if, in terms of those parameters, it has been equally successful?  The perception appears to be that it hasn't, however, because it has not accomplished the one goal it was designed to accomplish...to attract a major league sports franchise (either NBA or NHL)...

Tulsa harbored no such illusion...and I think it is safe to say the voters were not dangled that carrot, thankfully.  It is also probably a significant sting to KC that OKC corralled the NBA with a far less attractive product in the Ford Center...

Read on:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/05/the-empty-arena/7379/

[sgrizzle]

The BOK center was a success in that it was built for rotating events and minor sports, whereas KC was looking primarily for major sports. However if you look in terms of days, the BOK only books a couple of more days a year than KC's arena does. One noticeable difference though is the fact that the BOK Center turns a profit and KC's doesn't.

[TheTed]

The Sprint Center probably keeps a lot more tax dollars in town with the Power and Light District and all its chain restaurants right next door.

Visitors to the BOK Center almost have to go out of their way to patronize downtown Tulsa businesses. Visitors to the Sprint Center have to go out of their way not to patronize downtown businesses.

[sgrizzle]

The Sprint Center probably keeps a lot more tax dollars in town with the Power and Light District and all its chain restaurants right next door.

Visitors to the BOK Center almost have to go out of their way to patronize downtown Tulsa businesses. Visitors to the Sprint Center have to go out of their way not to patronize downtown businesses.

So our choices are a busy arena with lacking retail nearby or a lacking arena with busy business nearby?

[Hoss]

So our choices are a busy arena with lacking retail nearby or a lacking arena with busy business nearby?

Kinda like the chicken and the egg, eh Scott.

I don't think, without a specific draw downtown, that business could thrive.  The arena is helping that along, no matter what the nay-sayers say.  They hate that something they wanted to fail isn't failing.

That's how I know I live in mainly conservative demographic.   

[TheTed]

Kinda like the chicken and the egg, eh Scott.

I don't think, without a specific draw downtown, that business could thrive.  The arena is helping that along, no matter what the nay-sayers say.  They hate that something they wanted to fail isn't failing.

That's how I know I live in mainly conservative demographic.   

There's no doubt the arena is helping. But I'm sure it'd be keeping a whole lot more tax dollars downtown if there were a Power and Light District next door. I say that as someone who actively avoids the P&L when I visit KC because it feels like the the shopping mall of entertainment districts. Give me some dive bar on the other side of downtown. At least that's authentic.

But a lot of people who visit Tulsa for a concert, specifically out of towners, aren't gonna do the necessary homework to find out where the dining/entertainment areas are in Tulsa.

[Conan71]

But a lot of people who visit Tulsa for a concert, specifically out of towners, aren't gonna do the necessary homework to find out where the dining/entertainment areas are in Tulsa.

Probably some truth to that, we had the unfortunate reality of the BOK Center opening right in the middle of the '08 financial collapse which made getting funding for development in the area more difficult and there was still quite a bit of street construction going on which was another disincentive for development.  Give it a little time, I think the city getting off it's arse and deeding over the old City Hall site is one of the bigger needs to furthering development which feeds on the BOK. 

Further development here will be somewhat incrimental, though I have personally seen head counts up at venues in the Blue Dome, Brady, and SoBo up on show nights at the BOK as it is now.

[joiei]

I have several friends in KC who will attend events at the Sprint Center but avoid at all costs the stuff in the P&L district.   According to them the restaurants are some of the worst in the city in terms of food quality.  Most of the people wandering around in the P&L are tourists who are staying in the downtown hotels.   They also report that the P&L has been not very welcoming to African Americans to the point where they recently had to drop the imposed dress code.   http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/27/1976182/downtown-district-makes-dress.html

one are specific restrictions against excessively baggy clothing, undershirts, sweatshirts or athletic attire in the KC Live outdoor area of the Power & Light District. The only stated prohibitions include profanity on clothing, sleeveless shirts on men, sweatpants and full sweatsuits.

The more lenient dress code comes before a peak season that brings several major African-American conventions to downtown.

A city official told the City Council that the Cordish Co., operator of the downtown district, has in recent months taken steps to address numerous claims of unfair treatment against African-American patrons.

"There's a much better improvement in the overall atmosphere in the Power & Light District, as well as the implementation and enforcement of the dress code," Human Relations director Phillip Yelder said Thursday.

Yelder said the city and Cordish recently settled a forma

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/27/1976182/downtown-district-makes-dress.html#ixzz0pdIV9ps3

[SXSW]

I have several friends in KC who will attend events at the Sprint Center but avoid at all costs the stuff in the P&L district.   According to them the restaurants are some of the worst in the city in terms of food quality.  Most of the people wandering around in the P&L are tourists who are staying in the downtown hotels.   They also report that the P&L has been not very welcoming to African Americans to the point where they recently had to drop the imposed dress code.   http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/27/1976182/downtown-district-makes-dress.html

Louisville also has a similar Cordish development in its downtown.  The best thing about KC's P+L district is the Cosentino's grocery store.  It's a local chain (I'm looking at you Reasor's) that built a flagship, urban location that's a hit with people living downtown and those driving in just to visit.  I've heard it gets crowded at lunch with people from the surrounding office towers coming in to pick up the prepared foods and deli sandwiches. 

That being said, all our 'arena district' needs is 2-3 restaurants/bars across the street on Denver (there's already 2 on Cheyenne) but not enough that you keep people from going over to Blue Dome or Brady.  If One Place ever gets off the ground it will have space along Denver from 2nd to 3rd for retail/restaurants, and hopefully the corner tenant at 3rd & Denver is a local restaurant.  Something like '[Wayman] Tisdale's' that is a local sports-themed restaurant/bar would be a cool concept here, with outdoor seating facing the BOK Center plaza.  Another restaurant could go where that parking lot is on the other side of 3rd & Denver next to the bus depot.  Something like a Rock Bottom Brewery would be a good addition here.  That way you have two restaurants/bars with outdoor seating on both sides of 3rd acting as a 'gateway' to the rest of downtown from the entrance to the BOK and the convention center. 

[MichaelBates]

Probably some truth to that, we had the unfortunate reality of the BOK Center opening right in the middle of the '08 financial collapse which made getting funding for development in the area more difficult and there was still quite a bit of street construction going on which was another disincentive for development. 

That excuse won't fly, Conan. The location of the arena and the fact that it would be built was set in stone in September 2003, long before the big collapse. One of the arena's biggest pushers during the "Dialog Visioning" process was already in control of a ton of land on the main approach to the arena. He and other developers had plenty of time to start development during relatively prosperous times if they had really believed it would pay off. We were already coming out of the post-9/11/telecom-bubble recession in summer 2003.

And, no, the arena is not making a profit by business standards. It may be covering its operating expenses, but is well short of repaying the cost of construction or depreciation.

The Blue Dome District was already thriving long before the arena was completed. Its success owes more to a concentration of dining and entertainment in a small area, plus events like the Blue Dome Arts Festival and Tulsa Tough that bring people directly to the area, not a mile away.

[Hoss]

That excuse won't fly, Conan. The location of the arena and the fact that it would be built was set in stone in September 2003, long before the big collapse. One of the arena's biggest pushers during the "Dialog Visioning" process was already in control of a ton of land on the main approach to the arena. He and other developers had plenty of time to start development during relatively prosperous times if they had really believed it would pay off. We were already coming out of the post-9/11/telecom-bubble recession in summer 2003.

And, no, the arena is not making a profit by business standards. It may be covering its operating expenses, but is well short of repaying the cost of construction or depreciation.

The Blue Dome District was already thriving long before the arena was completed. Its success owes more to a concentration of dining and entertainment in a small area, plus events like the Blue Dome Arts Festival and Tulsa Tough that bring people directly to the area, not a mile away.

Ah yes, any chance for MBates to do his naysaying now that he doesn't have UT to express it on...so are you telling me that concerts like Keith Urban, Nickelback and others don't help BlueDome?  Hmm?

[nathanm]

The Blue Dome District was already thriving long before the arena was completed. Its success owes more to a concentration of dining and entertainment in a small area, plus events like the Blue Dome Arts Festival and Tulsa Tough that bring people directly to the area, not a mile away.

You must set a low bar for the term "thriving."

[sgrizzle]

How many places were in the blue dome before the BOK Center construction that are still around today? Arnie's and McNellie's?

[swake]

That excuse won't fly, Conan. The location of the arena and the fact that it would be built was set in stone in September 2003, long before the big collapse. One of the arena's biggest pushers during the "Dialog Visioning" process was already in control of a ton of land on the main approach to the arena. He and other developers had plenty of time to start development during relatively prosperous times if they had really believed it would pay off. We were already coming out of the post-9/11/telecom-bubble recession in summer 2003.

Do you think that maybe certain columnists and bloggers spending so much effort pushing the idea in the public's mind that the arena was going to sit empty and be a complete failure kept development money on hold until developers were able to see that those prognostications regarding the arena were wrong?

Here's a gem from right before the arena opened:

And who knows how empty that arena may be and for how long? The Oilers will play the upcoming season at the Fairgrounds Pavilion, and if Expo Square makes some locker room improvements, the hockey team may decide the smaller venue, with its free parking, is a better fit for its typical crowds than an arena they will never come close to filling.
Arena football won't work in the Pavilion without extensive modifications, so the Talons are still looking for a home for 2008. They may have to look beyond the metro area, and once they've found a new home they may not want to come back.

http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17072

[Townsend]

Do you think that maybe certain columnists and bloggers spending so much effort pushing the idea in the public's mind that the arena was going to sit empty and be a complete failure kept development money on hold until developers were able to see that those prognostications regarding the arena were wrong?

Here's a gem from right before the arena opened:

http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17072

Wow, was that before or after his come-apart at that public meeting with Taylor?