Home invasions

[Gaspar]

Want to teach your kids respect for firearms?  Take them to the range and let them shoot a .357 with a magnum load.  Takes about 2 days for the surprised look to leave their face.

After one shot, my wife just put it down and walked back to the lobby.  She said that her 9 felt like a squirt gun after that.

[custosnox]

If you do keep guns for home protection, make sure you talk to your local gun dealer and get good advice on ammo.  You want to kill the guy breaking in, not your friends and neighbors.

Your loads should be hollow point.  There are several brands made especially for home protection that will not pass through a wall or lose most of their momentum after encountering a target.  Don't use cheap ammo.  Use hollow point police loads (+P) for your weapon.  If using a .357, load it with 38cal +P. They are effective killers, but won't travel through your house and harm others. 

You don't need a Desert Eagle or Dirty Harry's (Callahan, not Reid) 44 to protect yourself.

Be safe when blowing the guts out of intruders. 

And what is wrong with my Desert Eagle?  It has worked great for home defense in the past.  Okay, I'll admit it, it's a baby eagle 9mm.  Loaded with Hydroshock rounds.  They'll take someone down quick, but not likely they will exit, or even make it through two layers of gypsum. 

[SXSW]

The question I have for gun owners is what do you do when they enter your home?  Do you play defense and wait for them to come to you or do you pursue them?  What do you do if there are multiple armed robbers?  I am considering buying a gun and learning how to shoot it but these thoughts keep going through my mind.  I hate that I even need to think about it. 

I can definitely understand why some choose to live in the suburbs because of perceived safety.  While the majority of Tulsa neighborhoods are very safe the perception that the entire city is dangerous comes from the local media sensationalizing every story about a shooting, homicide, or robbery even though most are on the far north side, east side around 21st & Garnett, or in the subsidized housing ghetto around 61st & Peoria.  These 'hot spots' though are not far from midtown (they surround it) and large parts of the city except the far south and southwest parts.  I worry more damage will be done by the media and people selling their homes in the city to flee a problem that really isn't that bad than the actual 'threat' of home invasions.  It's amazing how many people I talk to who express these views.  Your thoughts?

[Red Arrow]

Don't buy a shiny bright gun.  Get something dark and matt finished.  A friend almost learned the hard way that a pretty gun is easy to see by the bad guys.  Fortunately for my friend, the "intruder" was an armed security guard investigating my friend's open front door.

[custosnox]

The question I have for gun owners is what do you do when they enter your home?  Do you play defense and wait for them to come to you or do you pursue them?  What do you do if there are multiple armed robbers?  I am considering buying a gun and learning how to shoot it but these thoughts keep going through my mind.  I hate that I even need to think about it.  

I can definitely understand why some choose to live in the suburbs because of perceived safety.  While the majority of Tulsa neighborhoods are very safe the perception that the entire city is dangerous comes from the local media sensationalizing every story about a shooting, homicide, or robbery even though most are on the far north side, east side around 21st & Garnett, or in the subsidized housing ghetto around 61st & Peoria.  These 'hot spots' though are not far from midtown (they surround it) and large parts of the city except the far south and southwest parts.  I worry more damage will be done by the media and people selling their homes in the city to flee a problem that really isn't that bad than the actual 'threat' of home invasions.  It's amazing how many people I talk to who express these views.  Your thoughts?

A lot of people will say as long as they are in your home, kill em.  Just remember that if the issue is pushed, it may come down to the question of "was there reasonable expectation of danger?"  While in general this wouldn't come to mind when defending your house, if the cops find the guy, unarmed, shot 10 times in the back, heading towards the exit, there might be a question of justified shooting.  That being said, it is called home defence, not home offence.  Most of the time it will be reaction, no waiting or going.  They come in, you get to the gun, you shoot.  However, there are times when you have a moment to consider a strategy.  If you can, you want to make sure you can be someplace that limits their ability to get to you. Think of it this way, only one person can get through a door way at a time.  If you have multiple, armed attackers than positioning yourself where they have to go through a doorway that you have full visibilty to, but they have to go through to get to you, then they can only attack one at a time.  Of course, if they are trying to come through the front door, you can easily wait a bit back from it.  This will limit their acces, and they are distracted by trying to get through the door.  This all is just simple strategy, and will likely never get put into place (chances of having a home invastion are slim, and the chances of having a home invasion in a manner that you have a chance to prepare are extremely slim), but it might be a good idea just to visualize good defense points in your home so that if you have even a fraction of a moment to do something, you already know where to be.   As far as pursuing them, I would advise let them leave if they are trying to leave.  At that point you are no longer in danger.  It is hard to not chase though once the adrinaline is flowing and you know you have the upper hand.  At most, I would recommend going as far as to see outside to try and find anything that might help the police catch them, like a license plate, but in the end your safety is the largest concern.

As I said, the chances of someone invading your home, much less while you are home, is slim.  I do think of it as a "better to be prepared to defend and not have to than have to defend and not be prepared" situation.  I live at 31st & Garnett, so I am right at one of the "hot spots".  Still, it's not as bad here as is made out to be in the media.  Make your home and yourself a less desirable target and you will be safer for it.  Lock your car up, park in the drive, install motion sensor lights, get an alarm.  Simple things that don't take much, and you don't have to turn your home into a fortress to make a differance.  That being said, the flight from the "threat" is very prevailent.  I refuse to leave the area out of pure stubborness (I won't let criminals force me to leave), but there are plenty that are leaving.  Homes are constantly being put up for sale, often because the owner wants a "safer" neighborhood.  A lot of times they rent out the home, which brings in more problems. As the good people leave, looking for safer pastures, those who don't care (and are often the source of the crime) come in to fill the void.  

[Conan71]

The question I have for gun owners is what do you do when they enter your home?  Do you play defense and wait for them to come to you or do you pursue them?  What do you do if there are multiple armed robbers?  I am considering buying a gun and learning how to shoot it but these thoughts keep going through my mind.  I hate that I even need to think about it. 

I can definitely understand why some choose to live in the suburbs because of perceived safety.  While the majority of Tulsa neighborhoods are very safe the perception that the entire city is dangerous comes from the local media sensationalizing every story about a shooting, homicide, or robbery even though most are on the far north side, east side around 21st & Garnett, or in the subsidized housing ghetto around 61st & Peoria.  These 'hot spots' though are not far from midtown (they surround it) and large parts of the city except the far south and southwest parts.  I worry more damage will be done by the media and people selling their homes in the city to flee a problem that really isn't that bad than the actual 'threat' of home invasions.  It's amazing how many people I talk to who express these views.  Your thoughts?

The sound of a gun can be enough of a deterrent to get someone to back out and leave.  I don't relish the idea of shooting anyone, but I refuse to be a victim.  The sound of a shell being jacked into the chamber of a shotgun or an automatic pistol is unmistakable, as is the sound of a shot being fired.  It's possible firing a round into a wall or ceiling might make someone run, then again, it might not.  I'd fire on someone in my home or trying to force their way in, if they were already running off the property, I would not.

Some simple rules: never point a wepon unless you intend to fire it.  Never fire at someone unless you intend to kill them.

Custo: I would assume that your home invasion situation turned out as good as could be, they fled your property and you didn't have to deal with a whole investigation by our DA who doesn't seem to understand justifiable self-defense.  Have you ever wondered what would have happened had you shot your intruder?

[Gaspar]

The question I have for gun owners is what do you do when they enter your home?  Do you play defense and wait for them to come to you or do you pursue them?  What do you do if there are multiple armed robbers?  I am considering buying a gun and learning how to shoot it but these thoughts keep going through my mind.  I hate that I even need to think about it. 

I can definitely understand why some choose to live in the suburbs because of perceived safety.  While the majority of Tulsa neighborhoods are very safe the perception that the entire city is dangerous comes from the local media sensationalizing every story about a shooting, homicide, or robbery even though most are on the far north side, east side around 21st & Garnett, or in the subsidized housing ghetto around 61st & Peoria.  These 'hot spots' though are not far from midtown (they surround it) and large parts of the city except the far south and southwest parts.  I worry more damage will be done by the media and people selling their homes in the city to flee a problem that really isn't that bad than the actual 'threat' of home invasions.  It's amazing how many people I talk to who express these views.  Your thoughts?

Take a class at Tulsa Firearms.  If someone breaks in, be aware that your adrenalin is going to shoot through the roof.  Your muscles will tense and your vision will narrow (all part of the adrenalin rush).  It is important that you practice the scenario in your home with your gun, so that you know the obstacles.  This will make you safer and more comfortable if the unfortunate event occurs.  The intruder does not know your home like you do and his senses will be on high alert.  Both of you will be in "fight or flee" mode and people handle that differently.

My opinion is that you shoot and ask questions later, but that is up to you.  Yelling "I have a gun" is only an option if the person has not yet gained entry.  He can't see you at that point, and that may be all it takes to scare him away.  If he is in your house and you give a warning or even a warning shot you may cause him to attack rather than flee, and chances are he is better prepared for that than you are, because he has anticipated the scenario already.

After you buy a gun, fire it several times at the range at different distances.  If you are new to handguns you will be amazed at how inaccurate you are even at short distances.  Once you gain a comfort level for your ability to hit a target using the sites, run a few clips through it without using your sites.  Focus on the target, point the weapon (not using the sites) and fire.  Do this several times and you will dial in your ability to hit the target. 

Both my wife and I can pick up a gun and hit a target at 25 feet without ever looking down the barrel.  That's not hard to do if you hit the range at least one or two times a year to get the feel of it. 

Gun ownership is scary, and it should be.  The fear is directly tied to respect for the damage that the tool can inflict.  The more comfortable you become, the safer for everyone around you and the more of a threat you pose to the criminal.  I think you can still get the C&C license through Tulsa Firearms for about $75.  The classes are invaluable even if you don't intend to carry a weapon.

[custosnox]

Custo: I would assume that your home invasion situation turned out as good as could be, they fled your property and you didn't have to deal with a whole investigation by our DA who doesn't seem to understand justifiable self-defense.  Have you ever wondered what would have happened had you shot your intruder?

I have wondered that many times.  I'm sure that if the DA really wanted to push it, it would have been presented that I had "ambushed" the intruders.  Of course, I have also had to consider that these guys are still holding a grudge, so there is that end of it.  Then there is that if I had shot them, I would have to worry about their family or homies coming to get even.  Just a never ending nightmare of whatifs.  The best thing I can do is be glad I didn't have to kill anyone (I still see the guys eyes when I think about it) and do what I can not to worry over what could have happened too much.

[SXSW]

That being said, the flight from the "threat" is very prevailent.  I refuse to leave the area out of pure stubborness (I won't let criminals force me to leave), but there are plenty that are leaving.  Homes are constantly being put up for sale, often because the owner wants a "safer" neighborhood.  A lot of times they rent out the home, which brings in more problems. As the good people leave, looking for safer pastures, those who don't care (and are often the source of the crime) come in to fill the void.  

That worries me more than anything.  We can't build up Tulsa if people are scared to live here.  My wife isn't from here and sees the shootings and robberies on the news and even though it's not in our neighborhood she is on edge like I've never seen here.  That is what pisses me off. 

[cynical]

In Oklahoma since the enactment of the "Make My Day" law (21 O.S. Sec. 1289.25), the use of deadly force within one's home against an intruder is much simpler and free from the sort of second-guessing custosnox mentions.  The statute, within certain limitations mainly having to do with whether the "intruder" had the legal right to be there and whether the occupants of the residence were doing something illegal, anyone who breaks in, tries to break in, or tries to forcibly remove someone from the residence against their will can be killed.  The current version of the law not only establishes a legal presumption that the occupants of the home were put in reasonable fear for their lives, but grants immunity from prosecution rather than the previous affirmative defense.  Immunity is a very big thing.  It is not just immunity from conviction, it is immunity against the charge ever being brought. 

A lot of people will say as long as they are in your home, kill em.  Just remember that if the issue is pushed, it may come down to the question of "was there reasonable expectation of danger?"  While in general this wouldn't come to mind when defending your house, if the cops find the guy, unarmed, shot 10 times in the back, heading towards the exit, there might be a question of justified shooting.  

[Conan71]

That worries me more than anything.  We can't build up Tulsa if people are scared to live here.  My wife isn't from here and sees the shootings and robberies on the news and even though it's not in our neighborhood she is on edge like I've never seen here.  That is what pisses me off. 

I recall hearing about murders and assaults just about as frequently as when I was traveling a lot to Denver, KC, Wichita, Dallas, Little Rock, Memphis, etc.  Without stopping and comparing the murders per capita from those cities, the point is larger cities have these problems.  Is she from a rural area originally?  You are going to have that anywhere.   I spend equal amounts of time in Tulsa and Midwest City these days and I always feel perfectly safe.  I take some precautions and assume that crime can be sudden and random no matter where I go but I feel like Tulsa and OKC are both relatively safe places to be.  I don't go around places I should not be, especially late at night.  I can understand how you guys might feel a little jangled after the home invasions not terribly far from where you bought a house but those are a rare occurance by any measure in Tulsa

[custosnox]

In Oklahoma since the enactment of the "Make My Day" law (21 O.S. Sec. 1289.25), the use of deadly force within one's home against an intruder is much simpler and free from the sort of second-guessing custosnox mentions.  The statute, within certain limitations mainly having to do with whether the "intruder" had the legal right to be there and whether the occupants of the residence were doing something illegal, anyone who breaks in, tries to break in, or tries to forcibly remove someone from the residence against their will can be killed.  The current version of the law not only establishes a legal presumption that the occupants of the home were put in reasonable fear for their lives, but grants immunity from prosecution rather than the previous affirmative defense.  Immunity is a very big thing.  It is not just immunity from conviction, it is immunity against the charge ever being brought.  

In theory, yes the make my day law will cover you.  That doesn't mean that a DA won't go after you when you shoot someone 10 times in the back while they are heading towards the door.  Also doesn't mean that the Judge won't rule against you.  It also doesn't protect you from civil suit.  Keep in mind that it is a rare thing for someone to shoot an intruder in their home, so this law hasn't really been tested.

[Conan71]

In theory, yes the make my day law will cover you.  That doesn't mean that a DA won't go after you when you shoot someone 10 times in the back while they are heading towards the door.  Also doesn't mean that the Judge won't rule against you.  It also doesn't protect you from civil suit.  Keep in mind that it is a rare thing for someone to shoot an intruder in their home, so this law hasn't really been tested.

And, of course, the civil suit reminded me of what several people have told me: "Dead people make lousy witnesses"

Owning a gun and being willing to use it are major responsibilities for sure.

[custosnox]

I should add that I think the "make my day" law is a good thing, and I am glad it is there.  It should just be noted that it's nature is to allow the homeowner to defend themself, not a license to kill without prejudice.  So far the only homeowner shooting an intruder that I am aware of under the law (in oklahoma) was recently when the guy was coming at the homeowner with a sword.  This would have warrented a self-defense shooting regardless, so it still hasn't really tested the law.  I'm sure there are others that have occured that I'm not aware of.  A better case to think of on this would be the OKC pharmacy shooting where the store owner shot the robber, then came back to shoot him again.  If he would have left it with the original shooting of the robber he would have been fine, but he came back and popped a few more in him for good measure.  He is now in jail (if I'm not mistaken)

[cynical]

But it has been tested.  Several times.  The cases are there.  The courts have supported the act.  One case, for example, arose before the law was amended to clarify that "occupied" included visitors and before the immunity provision replaced the affirmative defense.  Even though the statute at that time didn't define "occupied dwelling" to include visitors, the Court of Criminal Appeals ruled that visitors have the same protection against prosecution that homeowners have.  Notwithstanding, the legislature broadened the act to expressly include visitors and granted immunity. 

Custosnox, I don't think you understand how prosecutors and courts function, especially wrt immunity issues.  The courts have uniformly ruled that immunity is protection against a case even being brought, and unlike common law immunities such as prosecutorial and judicial immunity or the qualified immunity that protects public officials from liability under the civil rights laws, specific statutory immunities are not subject to being judicially narrowed.  This is not a question in which anything is left to the discretion of the prosecutor or the court. 

Also, in case you haven't read the statute, subsection F of the statute expressly provides that anyone who uses force permitted under the act is immune from both criminal prosecution and civil action.  It further provides that court costs, attorneys fees, lost income, and all expenses will be awarded to anyone sued in a civil action who is found to be immune under the act. 

So, since you're making the claim that the Make My Day law is protection merely in theory, show us one case since the enactment of the law in any state in which someone acting clearly within the scope of the statute has been convicted or, in states that grant immunity, has even been charged. 

In theory, yes the make my day law will cover you.  That doesn't mean that a DA won't go after you when you shoot someone 10 times in the back while they are heading towards the door.  Also doesn't mean that the Judge won't rule against you.  It also doesn't protect you from civil suit.  Keep in mind that it is a rare thing for someone to shoot an intruder in their home, so this law hasn't really been tested.