Ok. . . This is terrifying.

[Red Arrow]

One thing usually neglected is to say whether the income defining "rich" is married filing jointly or otherwise.  Look at filing single. That $250,000 most often becomes $125,000 which is within the realm of many single professionals.

[heironymouspasparagus]

What is interesting about tighter environmental and safety regs which are the usual domain of Democrats, is they serve to benefit the larger corporate interests that they espouse as being "evil" due to smaller businesses being unable to afford to keep up with new regs either by not having cash on hand, the necessary credit available, or simply being sick of having the government up their arse.  Oh wait, the smaller business failed because they had an unsound business model when the government regulated them out of existence.

Until you've worked around the manufacturing and producing end of our economy extensively, you will probably never be able to fully appreciate what effects government regulation has on commerce.  It can be good and it can be bad.  Right now there's simply too much of a questionable to negative environment which is making companies horde cash and refuse to hire, expand, or spend.

So, when people are put out of jobs because they "didn't go to the right school" or choose the "right" career, well that's just too bad, they should have thought it out better.  According to the Murdoch Radio Script.  But when a small business owner is too much into his Sea-Doo, bass boat, house on the lake, and the brand new pickup truck, it's the governments fault he didn't plan a little bit ahead to take into account regulations??  Yeah, that makes sense.

As if there are not YEARS of discussion and advance notification for any significant regulation...
Until you have worked around the manufacturing and producing end of our economy extensively, you probably wouldn't realize how the regulation end of it works.

As for business not investing, well, I bet Murphy company would be surprised to hear that bag-o-crap, since they just got done doing a bunch of it here lately.  Also, there is a Fortune 100 company in the state that has invested a bucket of cash and has hired several hundred this year - just in Oklahoma - just to try keep up with demand.  And many times that nationwide, and worldwide.  And that hasn't been enough.  More to come.

Tulsa certainly is dead right now.  AAON seems to be looking for a couple of software types.  Monster shows 805 openings today, but who knows what those are.  Definitely not enough!

One big problem with a lot of Tulsa area companies is similar to a situation expressed in the Compadre's thread - not enough "barbie doll" people with the qualifications they want to hire - it put one poster off his appetite.  Apparently all the unemployed out there are ugly old fat farts like me.  Even if, as is so often the case, they are eminently qualified.   We can't have them roaming around a company "uglying" it up...  

Try being a highly trained technical type - an engineer - with degree(s), continuous training to stay current (which IS required), and become 50 years old.  See what happens.

Corporate America will be hounding the Fed to increase the H1-B visas since they "can't find" qualified people for $15,000 per year.

[Conan71]

So, when people are put out of jobs because they "didn't go to the right school" or choose the "right" career, well that's just too bad, they should have thought it out better.  According to the Murdoch Radio Script.  But when a small business owner is too much into his Sea-Doo, bass boat, house on the lake, and the brand new pickup truck, it's the governments fault he didn't plan a little bit ahead to take into account regulations??  Yeah, that makes sense.

As if there are not YEARS of discussion and advance notification for any significant regulation...
Until you have worked around the manufacturing and producing end of our economy extensively, you probably wouldn't realize how the regulation end of it works.

As for business not investing, well, I bet Murphy company would be surprised to hear that bag-o-crap, since they just got done doing a bunch of it here lately.  Also, there is a Fortune 100 company in the state that has invested a bucket of cash and has hired several hundred this year - just in Oklahoma - just to try keep up with demand.  And many times that nationwide, and worldwide.  And that hasn't been enough.  More to come.

Tulsa certainly is dead right now.  AAON seems to be looking for a couple of software types.  Monster shows 805 openings today, but who knows what those are.  Definitely not enough!

One big problem with a lot of Tulsa area companies is similar to a situation expressed in the Compadre's thread - not enough "barbie doll" people with the qualifications they want to hire - it put one poster off his appetite.  Apparently all the unemployed out there are ugly old fat farts like me.  Even if, as is so often the case, they are eminently qualified.   We can't have them roaming around a company "uglying" it up...  

Try being a highly trained technical type - an engineer - with degree(s), continuous training to stay current (which IS required), and become 50 years old.  See what happens.

Corporate America will be hounding the Fed to increase the H1-B visas since they "can't find" qualified people for $15,000 per year.

I just read this five times and still can't figure out what you said.  The only cogent point I got was what you said about there being years of discussion and advance notification.  Tell that to painting and remodeling contractors who apparently were not given adequate time to be in compliance with new training and containment regs which were placed on them in April. 

[Gaspar]

He got Murdoch in there again though.

+1

Basically he's lost somewhere in his brain.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You gotta be kidding.
Let's break it down so MurdochLand residents can enjoy, too.

Referenced to first paragraph in quote;
The official RWRE playbook has gone on for years about poor people are just victims of their own poor choices.  Didn't go to the right school.  Didn't develop the right contacts.  No matter what the economy or corporate America was doing around them, they are responsible for being poor because they did something stupid. 

So now, when some small business owner is too much into his Sea-Doo, bass boat, house on the lake, and the brand new pickup truck, it's the governments fault he didn't plan a little bit ahead to take into account regulations.  According to the script.

Referenced to second paragraph;
Self explanatory.  Read it again without the RWRE magic spectacles and I bet it will be clear.

Then there were some examples of actual business activity.  Even though they are still laying off people, Murphy did make an investment recently (was it misguided?  Who knows - they seem to be struggling for direction.  One of those second/third generational inheritance things that has been discussed around here.)

There are signs of activity all around.  Even if it isn't exactly what one would like, there are jobs opening up.  (Example; I am not interested in changing for anything I see now.)

Those new proposed painting regs have been around for at least 3 years.  That is how long I have heard about them and I am not even in the industry.  You just made one of my points exactly!

But you understood.  And I bet most readers also will.  Diversion is the number one tactic of the playbook.

[Conan71]

Okay, just making sure.  Nope, nothing which makes sense in there.

[Gaspar]

Okay, just making sure.  Nope, nothing which makes sense in there.

Do you have the "playbook?"  I seem to have left mine at home.

[TURobY]

Tell that to painting and remodeling contractors who apparently were not given adequate time to be in compliance with new training and containment regs which were placed on them in April.  

Contractors have known about these regulations since at least May 2008 (I did a very quick Google search and found an article from then, I didn't take too much more time looking for the exact date the legislation was passed). If nearly 2 years isn't enough, what should that number have been?

EDIT: The rule was passed on April 22, 2008, they were given two years to get training, and have even been given an extension until later this year. http://www.hud.gov/offices/lead/training/rrp/rrp.cfm

[Gaspar]

Contractors have known about these regulations since at least May 2008 (I did a very quick Google search and found an article from then, I didn't take too much more time looking for the exact date the legislation was passed). If nearly 2 years isn't enough, what should that number have been?

EDIT: The rule was passed on April 22, 2008, they were given two years to get training, and have even been given an extension until later this year. http://www.hud.gov/offices/lead/training/rrp/rrp.cfm

You don't understand the intricacies of the problem.  Unfortunately, as is usually the case, government involvement leads to complex systems that only function to make things difficult.

The law requires that businesses be "certified" by a "certified" training organization.  The trainer must be certified (by taking a half dozen EPA courses) and class sizes cannot exceed 25 persons as mandated by the EPA/DEQ. 

Currently, there are not enough trainers to satisfy the tens of thousands of workers in Oklahoma alone.   Only a couple in the area last I heard (133 in the whole country).  The classes available in Oklahoma are in OKC and are a full day.  They cost $195 per worker. 

It is not only construction that is affected.  Painters, landlords, decorators, carpet installers, locksmiths, window and door companies, garage door repair companies, roofers, plumbers, and many more.  Basically anyone who disturbs the finishes on older homes is required to pay the government and get the certification. 

Additionally, the moment a company performs work on your old lead painted home, they become liable for any exposure you or your children have after that point.  So if you have a window replaced, and someone in your family acquires lead poisoning 5 years later, you can sue the contractor that installed the window. Additionally if the EPA finds that a contractor did not perform the lead remediation correctly the fine is as high as $32,500 per day.  The fine for doing work uncertified is $65,000 (this can be something as simple as hanging a picture on the wall, or installing a new lock). 

The law, and the certification acknowledges "risk of exposure" caused by a contractor working on your home.   So basically, the government has made it very unattractive for all kinds of businesses to engage in preservation or remodeling of older structures.  Various home builders groups across the country have estimated that this will increase the cost of working on older homes by around 40%.

Don't worry, a select few companies will emerge as lead-certified contractors.  You will be able to find them in your Yellow pages. They will offset the liability by charging you as much as they want. 


Every coercive monopoly was created by government intervention into the economy: by special privileges, such as licenses or subsidies, which closed the entry of competitors into a given field, by legislative action. – Ayn Rand

[TURobY]

The law requires that businesses be "certified" by a "certified" training organization.  The trainer must be certified (by taking a half dozen EPA courses) and class sizes cannot exceed 25 persons as mandated by the EPA/DEQ. 

Currently, there are not enough trainers to satisfy the tens of thousands of workers in Oklahoma alone.   Only a couple in the area last I heard (133 in the whole country).  The classes available in Oklahoma are in OKC and are a full day.  They cost $195 per worker.

There are currently 4 training programs in the state of Oklahoma (2 in OKC, 1 in Tulsa, and 1 in Stillwater) and two nearby in Springfield and Wichita.

The fine for doing work uncertified is $65,000 (this can be something as simple as hanging a picture on the wall, or installing a new lock). 

Are you sure on that parenthetical statement? The law applies only if the project disturbs more than six square feet of paint in the area. If you hire someone to hang a picture on your wall or install a new lock, and they need to make a hole 6 square feet large, you should probably have gone with a different contractor in the first place.

[Conan71]

There are currently 4 training programs in the state of Oklahoma (2 in OKC, 1 in Tulsa, and 1 in Stillwater) and two nearby in Springfield and Wichita.

Are you sure on that parenthetical statement? The law applies only if the project disturbs more than six square feet of paint in the area. If you hire someone to hang a picture on your wall or install a new lock, and they need to make a hole 6 square feet large, you should probably have gone with a different contractor in the first place.

The government was far more aquiescent in postponing the digital TV conversion until they could make sure everyone had converters than they were with this law.    

They gave the enactment of the "lead law" a three week extension.

A good friend of mine has undergone certification to become an instructor and he asserts there wasn't anywhere close to enough time nor sufficient communication to A) help contractors discern if they needed the certification and B) get all those who would fall under the edict of this rule time to comply.

I believe much of the backlog problem is the result of miscommunication over who needed to be certified under the act.

[TURobY]

They gave the enactment of the "lead law" a three week extension.

A good friend of mine has undergone certification to become an instructor and he asserts there wasn't anywhere close to enough time nor sufficient communication to A) help contractors discern if they needed the certification and B) get all those who would fall under the edict of this rule time to comply.

I believe much of the backlog problem is the result of miscommunication over who needed to be certified under the act.

They further extended the deadline to become certified to December a couple of months back.

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/rrp-ques-answer.pdf
"EPA is providing additional time for renovation firms and workers to obtain the necessary training and certifications before enforcement of the firm certification and individual renovator requirements begins.
•Renovation Firms. Until October 1, 2010, EPA will not take enforcement action for violations of the RRP rule's firm certification requirement.
•Individual Renovators. EPA will not enforce against individual renovation workers for failure to be trained if the person has applied to enroll in, or has enrolled in, by not later than September 30, 2010, a certified renovator class to train contractors in practices necessary for compliance with the final rules. Individual renovators must complete the training by December 31, 2010. Renovators who have not been able to complete the training requirements are advised to review EPA's model training materials available at www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/training.htm. Additional information on lead-safe work practices can be found at www.epa.gov/lead or obtained from the National Lead Information Center at 1-800-424-LEAD (5323).".

[Conan71]

They further extended the deadline to become certified to December a couple of months back.

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/rrp-ques-answer.pdf
"EPA is providing additional time for renovation firms and workers to obtain the necessary training and certifications before enforcement of the firm certification and individual renovator requirements begins.
•Renovation Firms. Until October 1, 2010, EPA will not take enforcement action for violations of the RRP rule's firm certification requirement.
•Individual Renovators. EPA will not enforce against individual renovation workers for failure to be trained if the person has applied to enroll in, or has enrolled in, by not later than September 30, 2010, a certified renovator class to train contractors in practices necessary for compliance with the final rules. Individual renovators must complete the training by December 31, 2010. Renovators who have not been able to complete the training requirements are advised to review EPA's model training materials available at www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/training.htm. Additional information on lead-safe work practices can be found at www.epa.gov/lead or obtained from the National Lead Information Center at 1-800-424-LEAD (5323).".

Nice of them to tell me. 

Still doesn't change the fact that many contractors can't make even the new deadlines and I don't see how it changes my original comment that contractors weren't given enough time to comply by the original deadline in April. 

The whole gist of the line of commentary started when it was noted that government has handed down many regs over the years which have run small businesses out of business because they could not afford the cost of compliance.  Either they could not afford to or simply did not wish to be micro-managed by faceless bureaucrats.

[SXSW]

I work in commercial construction management and we have stayed busy through the downturn.  The work has shifted though to numerous smaller projects like hospital remodels and schools instead of several larger commercial projects.  Work has picked up in 2010 compared to 2009 which gives me hope that we are in fact in a recovery, albeit a slow one.  If energy prices rise there will be added front office jobs in Tulsa (also Houston, Dallas, OKC and Denver) and more jobs in rural areas where they are drilling.  It was recently released that exports increased for Tulsa, and that we ranked pretty high for mid-sized cities in the number of export products actually manufactured here.  If that keeps up there will be added jobs there.  Same for aerospace which has seen an uptick as well. 

I'm a Democrat but don't support rolling back the Bush tax cuts and increasing the capital gains tax, at least not right now.  Let the economy continue to recover on its own and we'll deal the stimulus debt later.  Trying to plug the hole too fast will not help things and could cause another downturn.  I'm just hoping we can stave off inflation and keep interest rates low, that is also key to having a full recovery.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It wasn't the time or extension or no extension.  It WAS that they did not act.

And of course I wouldn't expect it to be understood.  That is obvious.


Interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal today.  Even THEY are beginning to get a glimmer.  Of course, they have always known, but now too many people are "joining the club".  Instead of 0.1% wealthy, we are talking 2% to 5%. 

Bad for the old rich.  So when the 5% that spend 38% of the money in this economy slow down - look out, bad news!!  It just means that all that woefully lamented spending by Obama on his vacations is actually doing good for the rest of us, if not the 2%'ers or the 5%'ers.

http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/110258/us-economy-is-increasingly-tied-to-the-rich