George Kaiser and philanthropy...

[Rattle Trap]

I read last night that this Tulsa Remote program had well over 1000 applicants in the first 24 hours. It was being shared all over the internet by several national news outlets.

I agree with what they're trying to do in theory. Having so many applicants means they can be very selective too. Perhaps they can select individuals who show great potential in business startups, which I think is the main goal here.

Something to note is that one of the primary reasons people, and companies for that matter, don't relocate is the upfront cost and effort it takes. With that in mind, I would assume anyone who does relocate here because of this program's incentives will likely stay here long term due to the costs and effort required to relocate again.

Thoughts?

[Conan71]

It's pretty hard to argue with GKFF's approach on this.  It's a really novel idea and I think likely better than corporate hand outs for call centers, distribution centers, etc. Anything which will help encourage organic entrepreneurism is a great deal.  One of our goals out here in Cimarron, NM is trying to establish a business incubator in one of the vacant buildings to help locals with a skill or trade overcome the cost of entry into owning their own business.

[PhiAlpha]

It's pretty hard to argue with GKFF's approach on this.  It's a really novel idea and I think likely better than corporate hand outs for call centers, distribution centers, etc. Anything which will help encourage organic entrepreneurism is a great deal.  One of our goals out here in Cimarron, NM is trying to establish a business incubator in one of the vacant buildings to help locals with a skill or trade overcome the cost of entry into owning their own business.

I was in a position earlier this year in which I would've gladly taken advantage of this. $10k for a year isn't a ton of money but with some of the other incentives, it really sounds like a great deal if you work from home and are looking for somewhere else to live.

[Conan71]

I was in a position earlier this year in which I would've gladly taken advantage of this. $10k for a year isn't a ton of money but with some of the other incentives, it really sounds like a great deal if you work from home and are looking for somewhere else to live.

$10K will generally cover the moving expenses of most millennials and give them some starting capital.  So excited that this incentive came out for Tulsa.

[heironymouspasparagus]

$10K will generally cover the moving expenses of most millennials and give them some starting capital.  So excited that this incentive came out for Tulsa.

Not addressing this directly at you, but the wider audience....

Went to Tulsa Remote website for a while and still trying to get a sense of what this is all about.  First question that comes to mind;

Why??  For this whole thing... 

If the goal is to stimulate economic growth/development/new thinking/company startups, apply parts of this program to people who are doing exactly what this appears to attempt right now.  I know several who are doing remote work, could definitely use some free office space like 36 North - I am thinking about trying to a space there if they will allow old people!  Looks like grey hair is gonna be an uphill battle there as in so many other areas.   Just getting some of that, even without the $10k would be pretty substantial.

If we just wanna have 'guest workers' for a while, again, why??  And I know the answer - get people here for a while and maybe they will come here permanently with whatever work they do now.  I guess I could move my company to Rogers County and that would satisfy the requirements for a lot of this.  Will have to look into it - part of it is already physically there.  Seems like a cumbersome approach, but would love to hear/discuss this more.


Web site;
https://tulsaremote.com/#hero

[rebound]

Not addressing this directly at you, but the wider audience....

Went to Tulsa Remote website for a while and still trying to get a sense of what this is all about.  First question that comes to mind;

Why??  For this whole thing... 

If the goal is to stimulate economic growth/development/new thinking/company startups, apply parts of this program to people who are doing exactly what this appears to attempt right now.  I know several who are doing remote work, could definitely use some free office space like 36 North - I am thinking about trying to a space there if they will allow old people!  Looks like grey hair is gonna be an uphill battle there as in so many other areas.   Just getting some of that, even without the $10k would be pretty substantial.

If we just wanna have 'guest workers' for a while, again, why??  And I know the answer - get people here for a while and maybe they will come here permanently with whatever work they do now.  I guess I could move my company to Rogers County and that would satisfy the requirements for a lot of this.  Will have to look into it - part of it is already physically there.  Seems like a cumbersome approach, but would love to hear/discuss this more.


Web site;
https://tulsaremote.com/#hero

I travel for business all over the US, and I don't think people in Tulsa appreciate how "nothing" the rest of the US thinks about OK.  They have no idea how different OKC and Tulsa are, or that this area of the state is not flat and dry.  (and that is basically the overall thought about OK, that it is all flat and dry...)  Obviously, there are a few that have been here, and I have never heard a bad thing said about Tulsa from anyone who has actually visited here.  Most of them are very complimentary.   When OK makes the news nowadays, it almost always reinforces old and negative stereotypes, and all the marketing in the world will only go so far to say that "hey, we are different than the rest of the state".  This may be a brute-force way to do it, but if it gets new blood to come in and create things, then that is awesome.

On the age thing, I get it.  Also, I've moved here twice now (hence the "rebound" tag...) because I like the city so much.    Nobody paid me.   And now I'm well past the demographic they are wanting to attract.  But if we (Kaiser) is going to invest money to bring in new blood/talent, age is a consideration.  The longer someone stays in the community, the more ROI on the investment.  I'm not the target, nor are you, but it's still a great deal for the city.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I travel for business all over the US, and I don't think people in Tulsa appreciate how "nothing" the rest of the US thinks about OK.  They have no idea how different OKC and Tulsa are, or that this area of the state is not flat and dry.  (and that is basically the overall thought about OK, that it is all flat and dry...)  Obviously, there are a few that have been here, and I have never heard a bad thing said about Tulsa from anyone who has actually visited here.  Most of them are very complimentary.   When OK makes the news nowadays, it almost always reinforces old and negative stereotypes, and all the marketing in the world will only go so far to say that "hey, we are different than the rest of the state".  This may be a brute-force way to do it, but if it gets new blood to come in and create things, then that is awesome.

On the age thing, I get it.  Also, I've moved here twice now (hence the "rebound" tag...) because I like the city so much.    Nobody paid me.   And now I'm well past the demographic they are wanting to attract.  But if we (Kaiser) is going to invest money to bring in new blood/talent, age is a consideration.  The longer someone stays in the community, the more ROI on the investment.  I'm not the target, nor are you, but it's still a great deal for the city.

You are right about that - I do the same, talking to a LOT of people in technical/engineering fields.  Left, right, top and bottom coasts.  Couple of foreign countries like Venezuela, Canada, and Baja Oklahoma (self-described Texas).  Have talked here about 'jawboning' just to get them to come visit - not even starting the discussion about coming here to live, except for a couple of people mentioned earlier with Varian - and it is an instant method to get to the "TEGO" moment, followed by drowsiness and then a deep sleep!  I have told the story about one from the east who I pressed so hard to visit he finally came out with the question about what was really bothering him - "what about the Indians...?"   He, and a couple of co-workers, were literally concerned there might be an Indian uprising if they came here!  SMH, over and over and over...   I told them not to worry - OKC and Tulsa were fine and only occasionally did people get arrows shot into their cars on the turnpikes!   They still haven't visited...

Oh, and pictures showing how it isn't all flat and dry don't help.  (Even OKC has some texture, so it isn't all just flat and dry.)  They still get lots of pics of the dust bowl on different channels.

We have quite a few good sized companies from elsewhere with some pretty good sized operations here.  I have worked for a few of them... and each of them considers us a 'colony'.  'Nice' place to get low wage labor, but nowhere near civilized enough to move here to stay.  Managers and Executives move here, then go home when their 'term' is up.  Even a good sized number of our homegrown companies have taken flight to go somewhere more 'glamorous'.  And what we are missing to attract them takes decades to grow.


I guess we will see about the great deal.  Would be nice - I have mentioned many times that I have a pretty sizeable number of family and friends who have left Tulsa due to lack of opportunity.  ALL of them STEM types.  Love to have them back!!  And I have had to go to OKC WAY too much in recent years because of that.  Better than being dead, but not as good as being in Tulsa..!!

[SXSW]

You are right about that - I do the same, talking to a LOT of people in technical/engineering fields.  Left, right, top and bottom coasts.  Couple of foreign countries like Venezuela, Canada, and Baja Oklahoma (self-described Texas).  Have talked here about 'jawboning' just to get them to come visit - not even starting the discussion about coming here to live, except for a couple of people mentioned earlier with Varian - and it is an instant method to get to the "TEGO" moment, followed by drowsiness and then a deep sleep!  I have told the story about one from the east who I pressed so hard to visit he finally came out with the question about what was really bothering him - "what about the Indians...?"   He, and a couple of co-workers, were literally concerned there might be an Indian uprising if they came here!  SMH, over and over and over...   I told them not to worry - OKC and Tulsa were fine and only occasionally did people get arrows shot into their cars on the turnpikes!   They still haven't visited...

Oh, and pictures showing how it isn't all flat and dry don't help.  (Even OKC has some texture, so it isn't all just flat and dry.)  They still get lots of pics of the dust bowl on different channels.

We have quite a few good sized companies from elsewhere with some pretty good sized operations here.  I have worked for a few of them... and each of them considers us a 'colony'.  'Nice' place to get low wage labor, but nowhere near civilized enough to move here to stay.  Managers and Executives move here, then go home when their 'term' is up.  Even a good sized number of our homegrown companies have taken flight to go somewhere more 'glamorous'.  And what we are missing to attract them takes decades to grow.


I guess we will see about the great deal.  Would be nice - I have mentioned many times that I have a pretty sizeable number of family and friends who have left Tulsa due to lack of opportunity.  ALL of them STEM types.  Love to have them back!!  And I have had to go to OKC WAY too much in recent years because of that.  Better than being dead, but not as good as being in Tulsa..!!

I've said it plenty of times but we have to organically grow our STEM jobs.  Which means our universities need to be much better at producing the types of graduates that those industries need.  Tulsa has a long history of innovation...at least in the energy, communications and aerospace industries.  Look at what Williams/WilTel did with fiber optics in the 90's.  Look at all of the aerospace companies that build aircraft components even one time building the robotic arms for the space shuttle.  Tulsa also has really good trade schools which is one of the reasons the area has so many manufacturing jobs.

TU is a good university and is strong in STEM programs, especially engineering.  It could use a boost with its science and technology programs, as well as health sciences (which is happening with their partnership with OU).  The problem is TU is too small, it needs to be about twice its current size to make a more significant impact.  Imagine a TU the size of OU in Norman at 11th & Delaware.  That's not going to happen, but now imagine a TU the size of TCU in Ft Worth (enrollment of ~9,000), that is definitely possible if the will is there.  That coupled with increases in investment from OU and OSU into their respective Tulsa campuses would be trans-formative.  

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I've said it plenty of times but we have to organically grow our STEM jobs.  Which means our universities need to be much better at producing the types of graduates that those industries need.  Tulsa has a long history of innovation...at least in the energy, communications and aerospace industries.  Look at what Williams/WilTel did with fiber optics in the 90's.  Look at all of the aerospace companies that build aircraft components even one time building the robotic arms for the space shuttle.  Tulsa also has really good trade schools which is one of the reasons the area has so many manufacturing jobs.

TU is a good university and is strong in STEM programs, especially engineering.  It could use a boost with its science and technology programs, as well as health sciences (which is happening with their partnership with OU).  The problem is TU is too small, it needs to be about twice its current size to make a more significant impact.  Imagine a TU the size of OU in Norman at 11th & Delaware.  That's not going to happen, but now imagine a TU the size of TCU in Ft Worth (enrollment of ~9,000), that is definitely possible if the will is there.  That coupled with increases in investment from OU and OSU into their respective Tulsa campuses would be trans-formative.  

They had plans to increase somewhat, but TU probably can't/won't feasibly get anywhere near that big any time soon. They are limited by the demographics because of trying to limit admissions to students in top 10%. The pool of applicants isn't growing (for most all universities) so the only way to expand is lower their standards. If they allow too low, their rankings and reputation will suffer and will cause a ripple effect and hurt future years as well. They've actually gotten a bit smaller recently because of the decline in incoming freshmen nation wide.

If Tulsa wants a big university it will need to be public. Many want it and I agree that it would certainly be a big boost that is well needed and would be highly utilized. Maybe Tulsan leaders can seize the opportunity with a Tulsan governor and likely a bit more influence in state politics than usual.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

You are right about that - I do the same, talking to a LOT of people in technical/engineering fields.  Left, right, top and bottom coasts.  Couple of foreign countries like Venezuela, Canada, and Baja Oklahoma (self-described Texas).  Have talked here about 'jawboning' just to get them to come visit - not even starting the discussion about coming here to live, except for a couple of people mentioned earlier with Varian - and it is an instant method to get to the "TEGO" moment, followed by drowsiness and then a deep sleep!  I have told the story about one from the east who I pressed so hard to visit he finally came out with the question about what was really bothering him - "what about the Indians...?"   He, and a couple of co-workers, were literally concerned there might be an Indian uprising if they came here!  SMH, over and over and over...   I told them not to worry - OKC and Tulsa were fine and only occasionally did people get arrows shot into their cars on the turnpikes!   They still haven't visited...

Oh, and pictures showing how it isn't all flat and dry don't help.  (Even OKC has some texture, so it isn't all just flat and dry.)  They still get lots of pics of the dust bowl on different channels.

We have quite a few good sized companies from elsewhere with some pretty good sized operations here.  I have worked for a few of them... and each of them considers us a 'colony'.  'Nice' place to get low wage labor, but nowhere near civilized enough to move here to stay.  Managers and Executives move here, then go home when their 'term' is up.  Even a good sized number of our homegrown companies have taken flight to go somewhere more 'glamorous'.  And what we are missing to attract them takes decades to grow.


I guess we will see about the great deal.  Would be nice - I have mentioned many times that I have a pretty sizeable number of family and friends who have left Tulsa due to lack of opportunity.  ALL of them STEM types.  Love to have them back!!  And I have had to go to OKC WAY too much in recent years because of that.  Better than being dead, but not as good as being in Tulsa..!!

I get what you're saying but that is how things are viewed on a top-corporate level or by big cities just like "flyover country" is dismissed on the coasts. It's a very generalized and wrong view that isn't shared regionally where most prospective future Tulsans would move from. Sure many in Dallas or Houston don't think much of Tulsa or think it's a tiny country town, but many in Chicago ignorantly view KC and Dallas as little redneck towns.

People in the region do know Tulsa and many move here from all over and many of those people enjoy it, especially when people experience our arts, music and midtown areas. Many also love the quiet affordable suburb lifestyle here over places like Chicago where it's very expensive or long commute.

It's not unique to Tulsa that people move away for STEM jobs. I can go show you hundreds of STEM job listings in Tulsa, many of which will be filled by out of state applicants. Those jobs are often very specialized and often bring people from all over. When I was a senior, I had companies from several different states interview me and had offers in different states. The sometimes-higher offers require you to move to some remote area or a big city, but Tulsa's aerospace and oil & gas jobs are often right in line with pay in some much larger cities. I was surprised many offers around here were higher than what a lot of northern/midwest jobs were paying.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I've said it plenty of times but we have to organically grow our STEM jobs.  Which means our universities need to be much better at producing the types of graduates that those industries need.  Tulsa has a long history of innovation...at least in the energy, communications and aerospace industries.  Look at what Williams/WilTel did with fiber optics in the 90's.  Look at all of the aerospace companies that build aircraft components even one time building the robotic arms for the space shuttle.  Tulsa also has really good trade schools which is one of the reasons the area has so many manufacturing jobs.

TU is a good university and is strong in STEM programs, especially engineering.  It could use a boost with its science and technology programs, as well as health sciences (which is happening with their partnership with OU).  The problem is TU is too small, it needs to be about twice its current size to make a more significant impact.  Imagine a TU the size of OU in Norman at 11th & Delaware.  That's not going to happen, but now imagine a TU the size of TCU in Ft Worth (enrollment of ~9,000), that is definitely possible if the will is there.  That coupled with increases in investment from OU and OSU into their respective Tulsa campuses would be trans-formative.  

"Circle of friends/family" (over half family) lost to OK who went to school at one of either OU, OSU, TU.  Chemical Engr (MSCE), two Mechanical (BSME), three Electrical(2 BSEE and 1 MSEE), two "SuperTechs" - electrical/electronic, one Computer Engr (BSCE), one Computer Science BS degree, plus 4 teachers - all MS degrees (only one STEM teacher, others were English, Special Ed, and one I don't remember but teaches elementary.)  Also have two who are game programming Computer Science people - STEM but I don't really "get" what they do - lots of algorithm and graphics stuff on the left coast, way up north...

Agreeing with you....
We have great Universities here - and they can stand with pretty much any school in the country.   I have gone online to MIT's site and went through Calc as a refresher a couple years ago - it was no "better" or enlightening than what is taught here, at TU, OSU, and even TCC.  Calc is calc is calc.  Physics is physics is physics.  Individual instructors make much more a difference than the nature of the institution, and I was "lucky" to have many very good teachers throughout.  We are not 'behind' at all.!!

Biggest problem I see with TU and getting bigger is that they just can't quite seem to reach that critical mass needed to start a doctorate program in Electrical Engineering.  If they were bigger, it might give them some 'headroom' to do that and similar things in other departments.


Your quote;   "producing the types of graduates that those industries need."

That has been a burr under my saddle for a long time - there is a tremendous amount of talent that is going to waste in NE OK...and the rest of the state as well just dueo to an attitude by companies - and mostly HR departments - that if they can't get the exact full list of items 'desired' from a candidate, they don't make a move.  They should hire as close as possible and develop from there.  And to make it worse, they write a list of 'requirements' that has never existed in any field in the history of the planet!  That is a HUGE FAIL by corporate America!!  My mind is boggled that the C suite lets HR get away with that carp!   You can see these kind of things on any job site from companies like ABB, AA, Siemens, Navico, Garmin, Enduro Pipeline, Halliburton (Summit), Baker Hughes, Spirit, Enovation Ctrls, GRC, Victory Energy, even TDW does it some (to a lesser degree).  

Not meaning to pick on them - they are some really good companies with just a little bit too much influence from HR.

As another example - I just talked to a friend few days ago, who was with Boeing at Tinker early this year, who I worked with for a decade - super EE!  Has several patents in several different industries (like me, but not me...).  He is old now, though - mid 50's, so even with the breadth and depth of his experience, with the pretty amazing array of electronics creations he has done - he is now driving a truck hauling supplies to oil field locations.  Waste of a great OU Electrical Engineer!  (Side note - I am not crying for him, cause he is satisfied with it for now, and making pretty good money...not quite as much, but enough.)

The above is a HUGE part of the reason the list I gave are not in OK making us even greater!  Short sighted, no imagination, uninspired, anemic, management.   Kaiser has done some great stuff, but his latest remote Tulsa thing is slightly off target as far as I am concerned - even if we do attract all the "best and brightest", the experience I and friends/family have had will send them back on the road way too soon!!  I think an effort to stem (pun?) the tide of STEM emigration would pay off with bigger returns.  Just my opinion...

[heironymouspasparagus]

They had plans to increase somewhat, but TU probably can't/won't feasibly get anywhere near that big any time soon. They are limited by the demographics because of trying to limit admissions to students in top 10%. The pool of applicants isn't growing (for most all universities) so the only way to expand is lower their standards. If they allow too low, their rankings and reputation will suffer and will cause a ripple effect and hurt future years as well. They've actually gotten a bit smaller recently because of the decline in incoming freshmen nation wide.

If Tulsa wants a big university it will need to be public. Many want it and I agree that it would certainly be a big boost that is well needed and would be highly utilized. Maybe Tulsan leaders can seize the opportunity with a Tulsan governor and likely a bit more influence in state politics than usual.

Boy did they mess up when they let me in then!  Top 10%!   Maybe I am what inspired them to shoot for that..  Lol...

Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises.  That's gonna be a big help, I am sure!!  Not.

TU has huge endowments and could grow if the applicants were available - you touched on it exactly - lower numbers of freshmen across the board.  Which brings us right back to the problem of student loan debt after graduation.  Which means that state schools, at least, need MORE state support, NOT less as is on the agenda with this clown.   It is a Catch 22 'downward spiral'.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I get what you're saying but that is how things are viewed on a top-corporate level or by big cities just like "flyover country" is dismissed on the coasts. It's a very generalized and wrong view that isn't shared regionally where most prospective future Tulsans would move from. Sure many in Dallas or Houston don't think much of Tulsa or think it's a tiny country town, but many in Chicago ignorantly view KC and Dallas as little redneck towns.

People in the region do know Tulsa and many move here from all over and many of those people enjoy it, especially when people experience our arts, music and midtown areas. Many also love the quiet affordable suburb lifestyle here over places like Chicago where it's very expensive or long commute.

It's not unique to Tulsa that people move away for STEM jobs. I can go show you hundreds of STEM job listings in Tulsa, many of which will be filled by out of state applicants. Those jobs are often very specialized and often bring people from all over. When I was a senior, I had companies from several different states interview me and had offers in different states. The sometimes-higher offers require you to move to some remote area or a big city, but Tulsa's aerospace and oil & gas jobs are often right in line with pay in some much larger cities. I was surprised many offers around here were higher than what a lot of northern/midwest jobs were paying.

I would much rather see us get GOOD attention from the coasts!  That is where the big movements/developments are happening in recent decades.

I think it is gonna be a very tough sell to interest people from other midwest areas to come here for the long term.  Some of those I have mentioned that moved here while 'completing' some job assignment, or retired, etc were from places like Milwaukee, St. Louis, KC, Indianapolis, and Phoenix.  Also some 'coasties' - San Diego, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle.  None of them are here now - they all went "home" - and some of the companies are also winding down or already moved on.  Outside forces as well as our own "step-on-our-own-toes" efforts combine to hurt us.  A lot.

Pay - yeah, sometimes we get that right.   When I graduated I got offers from Boeing (Wichita), General Dynamics (Dallas), Collins (KC), and Rockwell at about 20% more than what Tulsa was doing at the time.  Turns out, got an offer here in town equal to those others - the company had to rework it's entire pay schedule, though, cause I would have come in at about 15% more than the very senior engineers that were there.  Got about 8 guys some REALLY good raises!  Hey, y'all - you are welcome!!   (They know who they are, if they know who I am...)

[TheArtist]

The conversation went from "Bringing in new people with new ideas to create new companies" to "hiring for jobs at big, old established firms."

Having both are important. 

But, I think getting Tulsa to be seen as a modern thinking,  "entrepreneurial" city that is both welcoming to newcomers AND supportive of those entrepreneurs who are here, is important. 

And I do get the point that it often doesn't seem like we adequately and as visually/vocally support what is already here and going on.  Do think there are some positive signs on that front though.  A more vigorous "buy local/support local" push by the city would not only be great for those that are here but send a HUGE positive signal to those new entrepreneurs that we are wanting to attract from around the world, that Tulsa is a great, worthwhile place to be.  If when they get here they are going to be ignored like those who are already here are, that's not a good signal to send. If they think that when they get here the attention will instantly go off of them and instead be "getting in someone new", that again is also not a good signal to send. These young, entrepreneurial people aren't stupid. They can see how the people/businesses (downtown stores as a per instance) that are already here are being ignored and not promoted.

[Dspike]

"Tulsa Governor in this case won't help.  He has already said he was against the pay raises for teachers - the entry point from which all education flows.  And would like to rescind the raises."

Do you have an article or quote where Gov.-Elect Stitt says he wants to rescind the teacher pay raises. Everything I've seen says Gov.-Elect Stitt wants to increase teacher pay more. For example, this right-before-the-election article:

"Stitt has set a goal of making Oklahoma the highest paying for teachers out in the six-state region.

While he hasn't set a specific number, Stitt has promised to seek an education funding increase next year through a growth in the state's tax base and more efficient spending, but not through tax hikes."

https://newsok.com/article/5613609/candidates-differ-on-teacher-pay-in-first-year

And this just-after-the-election article:

"But [Stitt] has also vowed to increase spending in education and said he would seek another teacher pay raise during the first year of his administration."

https://newsok.com/article/5614226/kevin-stitt-wins-governors-race

And his campaign website itself:

"Raise teacher pay so that it matches the pay of teachers in our six-state footprint. With 95 percent of Oklahoma children attending public schools, we must ensure those on the front lines of teaching our children receive the support they need to succeed."

https://www.stittforgovernor.com/issues/