Government Motors (GM)

[Conan71]

Water heater is probably 80% or slightly better (one interesting side effect is that it still beats electricity cost at 100% efficiency.)

You really think so?  From a fuel usage stand-point it might be cheaper, but looking at my summertime usage of 500 to 1000 cubic feet of gas per month, I still pay roughly $20 to $22 per month in fees, transportation, and taxes for a total gas bill of $29 to $31.  I've still never researched if theres a connect or disconnect fee with ONG, anyone know?  Seems pretty stupid for me to have a water heater with stand-by heat loss while I'm gone during the day, then paying the gas company three times my actual gas usage in taxes and administrative costs.  IOW, I figure I could shut off the gas for at least six months out of the year if I had an electric water heater.  And if I did go electric, I'd put an interrupt timer on it so it won't heat up during the day when I don't need it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You really think so?  From a fuel usage stand-point it might be cheaper, but looking at my summertime usage of 500 to 1000 cubic feet of gas per month, I still pay roughly $20 to $22 per month in fees, transportation, and taxes for a total gas bill of $29 to $31.  I've still never researched if theres a connect or disconnect fee with ONG, anyone know?  Seems pretty stupid for me to have a water heater with stand-by heat loss while I'm gone during the day, then paying the gas company three times my actual gas usage in taxes and administrative costs.  IOW, I figure I could shut off the gas for at least six months out of the year if I had an electric water heater.  And if I did go electric, I'd put an interrupt timer on it so it won't heat up during the day when I don't need it.

You may want to look at the newer high efficiency gas units - no pilot light.  They use electronic ignition.  Could turn it on/off just like electric then, if you wanted to. 

There is also that minimum fee for electric, too.

I am looking at the tankless water heaters and I like them a lot.  The problem I had for this house is that I ended up putting in a tank that costs a couple hundred a year to heat water.  Tankless that I want is about $650 more, or probably about 5+ years to break even.  Next house.

[Conan71]

You may want to look at the newer high efficiency gas units - no pilot light.  They use electronic ignition.  Could turn it on/off just like electric then, if you wanted to. 

There is also that minimum fee for electric, too.

I am looking at the tankless water heaters and I like them a lot.  The problem I had for this house is that I ended up putting in a tank that costs a couple hundred a year to heat water.  Tankless that I want is about $650 more, or probably about 5+ years to break even.  Next house.

Payback for a tankless for a single person or couple is virtually nonexistent unless you love hour long showers.  It starts getting impressive with a family of four or larger.  Trust me on this one, steam and hot water are my life

Sure there's a minimum fee for electric, but I must have that year-round to operate my lights, air conditioning, blower motor when I'm in furnace mode, etc.  Just making the point that I think I'm pissing $120 a year down the drain when the only other need I have for gas is my furnace and I don't use the furnace from May to about November.  My water heater has EI, you still get standby heat loss and loss of efficiency with the flue stack.

[Gaspar]

Payback for a tankless for a single person or couple is virtually nonexistent unless you love hour long showers.  It starts getting impressive with a family of four or larger.  Trust me on this one, steam and hot water are my life

Sure there's a minimum fee for electric, but I must have that year-round to operate my lights, air conditioning, blower motor when I'm in furnace mode, etc.  Just making the point that I think I'm pissing $120 a year down the drain when the only other need I have for gas is my furnace and I don't use the furnace from May to about November.  My water heater has EI, you still get standby heat loss and loss of efficiency with the flue stack.

Steam Geek!

[Conan71]

Steam Geek!

Have you ever cleaned up after an alpaca?

It's AWESOME!

[Ed W]

Those weren't consumer products to start with, so major difference. 

The other difference is green energy and all those initiatives have been heavily politicized....

There most definitely are many items we all enjoy now as a result of government investment and research which likely would have never come to the consumer level through free-market innovation.  Composite and nano-technology, and the whole GPS system are several things I can think of, as well as medical research which has resulted in many lives improved and saved.

What?  Are you telling me that I can't have my own hydrogen bomb?  (snark)

Seriously, those green initiatives and other start up programs for new technology likely wouldn't get funding from private industry.  Can you imagine the petrochemical companies funding development on a competing technology even if it would supplant their existing business in another half century or so?  Instead, they'd quietly buy it out and squash it.  So unless a technological genius is also as wealthy as Midas, it's unlikely his ideas will ever come to market absent government investment.

Sure, it's a simplistic argument, but I expect you'll have fun with it.

[Red Arrow]

Sure there's a minimum fee for electric, but I must have that year-round to operate my lights, air conditioning, blower motor when I'm in furnace mode, etc.  Just making the point that I think I'm pissing $120 a year down the drain when the only other need I have for gas is my furnace and I don't use the furnace from May to about November.  My water heater has EI, you still get standby heat loss and loss of efficiency with the flue stack.

I'd be glad to only piss away $120/yr for electric at my hangar at Riverside.  My electric bill is about $38/month before I use even 1 KWHr of electric.

[Red Arrow]

Don't forget when considering the 'efficiency' of electric generation...in addition to the fuel to electric output (probably averages around 35%) and the efficiency of transmitting that electricity over 70% efficient power grid, there is another loss in the charging of the battery - for every 100 units of electricity capacity of the battery, about 115-120 units of electricity are used to charge that battery to that full condition.  20%.

I only looked as far as the article I linked.  I don't know what efficiencies the EPA did or did not include.

[Conan71]

I'd be glad to only piss away $120/yr for electric at my hangar at Riverside.  My electric bill is about $38/month before I use even 1 KWHr of electric.

One word:

Flashlight

Unless you spend a lot of time there, what would the ramifications be for a 4000 or 5000W generator? 

We need to go get a $100 hamburger some day soon.  Naturally I'd be more than happy to buy the fuel and your lunch.   FMC has never gone up in a small prop job, she would love it.

[Red Arrow]

One word:
Flashlight
Unless you spend a lot of time there, what would the ramifications be for a 4000 or 5000W generator? 
We need to go get a $100 hamburger some day soon.  Naturally I'd be more than happy to buy the fuel and your lunch.   FMC has never gone up in a small prop job, she would love it.

I spend enough time at the hangar that the noise from a small generator would drive me nuts.  I also doubt the capability of a small generator to start the air compressor.  The airport authority probably wouldn't like a small generator either except in power out situations.

You are aware that the $100 hamburger was when gas was $2.00/gal.,  not the $5.65/gal it is now at RVS.

[Hoss]

I spend enough time at the hangar that the noise from a small generator would drive me nuts.  I also doubt the capability of a small generator to start the air compressor.  The airport authority probably wouldn't like a small generator either except in power out situations.

You are aware that the $100 hamburger was when gas was $2.00/gal.,  not the $5.65/gal it is now at RVS.

Holy jeez...last I remember was it hovering right around 4.  Damn.

[Red Arrow]

Holy jeez...last I remember was it hovering right around 4.  Damn.

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

You may have to type in the airport to center around.  Use KRVS.

[Hoss]

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html

You may have to type in the airport to center around.  Use KRVS.

Wow, looks like you can get it a Pogue for 4.80?

[Red Arrow]

Wow, looks like you can get it a Pogue for 4.80?

It's $4.62 at Okmulgee (22 miles).  Pogue is 11 miles.  Everyone can understand calculating your savings based on how much gas you need vs. how much you will use and other operating costs to go somewhere specifically for cheaper gas.  Non-pilots may not realize that just stopping off for gas on the way is more time and gas consuming for an airplane than just pulling in to a Quik Trip on Memorial.

However, if I am just out flying around for the fun of it, I will try to have some fun near a place with less expensive gas.

Edit:
Just to be somewhat fair, the places with higher prices will frequently offer more services such as pilots' lounges, crew cars and weather computer access without additional charge that are paid for in the price of gas or jet fuel. There are other cost/price considerations too.  At Okmulgee and Pogue (Sand Springs), the city owns the Fixed Base Operation (FBO) whereas the FBOs at Riverside are private businesses.  Tulsa charges the FBOs a fuel flow fee ($.15/gal, I believe) for the privilege of selling fuel which is passed on of course.   Small airports may be more interested in attracting traffic than making a living by selling fuel since FAA grants can be tied to the amount of traffic the airport gets.   Lots and lots of reasons but $1.00 per gallon cheaper is difficult to turn down if you're buying 40, 50, 60 or more gallons.

[Conan71]

I spend enough time at the hangar that the noise from a small generator would drive me nuts.  I also doubt the capability of a small generator to start the air compressor.  The airport authority probably wouldn't like a small generator either except in power out situations.

You are aware that the $100 hamburger was when gas was $2.00/gal.,  not the $5.65/gal it is now at RVS.

Okay, I stand corrected.  Make that a $250 hamburger