Oklahoma Poll Results 8/1/10

[Gaspar]

Well, opposing gay marriage on religious grounds and the building of mosques is a great start to the theocracy bit. You might read a bit about the messages Glenn Beck is pushing to his tea party faithful.

Moreover, as I mentioned before, their (and your) position that the state should be deconstructed is very radical.

Speaking of mosques. . .

‎"The fact that Islam can build a mosque at Ground Zero tells you everything you need to know about this country. The fact that Islam will build a mosque at Ground Zero tells you everything you need to know about Islam." - Dennis Miller

It's an interesting subject.  I believe any American should be free to build whatever he/she wants on their property.  I believe that the ground zero mosque is an excellent example of the freedom that we share.

On the other hand the philosophy behind it is troublesome, and the group behind it is even more troublesome.  In Islam it is tradition to build a Mosque at the site of every great victory.  Typically you build the Mosque on or near the ruins of your enemy's palace or religious site.  There are hundreds of great examples of beautiful mosques all over the world built on or near the ruins of conquered peoples.  The Moors were very prolific in erecting grand mosques as a symbol of their victories.  The greatest of these is the Mezquita in Cordoba Spain.  It is built on the ruins of the church of St. Vincent when the Moors sacked Spain.  The Mezquita or the Cordoba as some call it is used as an example of Islam's victory over the Kafir (infidel).

I find it odd and a bit disturbing that the group building the ground zero Mosque calls themselves the Cordoba institute.  It makes me wonder about the motive behind this monument.

[Townsend]

I find it odd and a bit disturbing that the group building the ground zero Mosque calls themselves the Cordoba institute.  It makes me wonder about the motive behind this monument.

Same as any church.  To get more followers which begets more money and power.  Any organized religion is set up that way.

[nathanm]

The "mosque" isn't a mosque, it's a cultural center with a prayer room, and it's not "at" ground zero. It's not even visible from there at ground level.

Beyond that, the furor is just another example of some far right wingers seeming to be unable to make the connection that the same Constitution that guarantees them the right to bear arms also guarantees other people rights. Like the right to worship however they see fit, so long as they don't violate the criminal codes.

[Townsend]

The "mosque" isn't a mosque, it's a cultural center with a prayer room, and it's not "at" ground zero. It's not even visible from there at ground level.

Well that makes me ask, what would have to changeto make it a mosque?

[rwarn17588]

On the other hand the philosophy behind it is troublesome, and the group behind it is even more troublesome.  In Islam it is tradition to build a Mosque at the site of every great victory.  Typically you build the Mosque on or near the ruins of your enemy's palace or religious site.  There are hundreds of great examples of beautiful mosques all over the world built on or near the ruins of conquered peoples.  The Moors were very prolific in erecting grand mosques as a symbol of their victories.  The greatest of these is the Mezquita in Cordoba Spain.  It is built on the ruins of the church of St. Vincent when the Moors sacked Spain.  The Mezquita or the Cordoba as some call it is used as an example of Islam's victory over the Kafir (infidel).

Even if Cordoba was a mosque (which it isn't), you're not accounting for the more than 90 mosques in the New York City area.

Do you really think all of those mosques in the Big Apple were built on a battle site or the ruins of a conquered church?

Instead of wildly paranoid theories, maybe it'd be better and saner to presume that these mosques were built simply because the locals wanted them.

[SXSW]

Oklahoma has an open door policy.  You are welcome to leave at any time.

Maybe that's why most of my friends in their mid 20's have left.  When I read articles like this I sometimes wonder why I came back.  There are a lot of crazy people in this state.  If that nut Fallin gets elected as governor I may start thinking about moving back to Colorado.

[azbadpuppy]

Maybe that's why most of my friends in their mid 20's have left.  When I read articles like this I sometimes wonder why I came back.  There are a lot of crazy people in this state.  If that nut Fallin gets elected as governor I may start thinking about moving back to Colorado.

Exactly.

I will always love my home state, and I have friends and family there so I will always go back- to visit. Unfortunately I have given up the possibility of ever moving back to Oklahoma. The religious, conservative fanatics have hijacked the state, and as much as small groups of people, like some on this forum and certain friends of mine want things to progress and change for the better, it seems like the majority of the state, and many on this forum, are hell bent on keeping Oklahoma the intolerant, non-diverse buckle of the bible belt.

Tulsa, through creative and opportunistic individuals has transformed into a beautiful city- IMO one of the prettiest in the country. Unfortunately it has also transformed into a somewhat unwelcoming place for many due to the oppressive political/religious climate, which in Oklahoma are one & the same.   

It is really a shame, since it is a beautiful place with many wonderful, friendly people. Oh well. It's Oklahoma's loss, I'm afraid.

[custosnox]

Exactly.

I will always love my home state, and I have friends and family there so I will always go back- to visit. Unfortunately I have given up the possibility of ever moving back to Oklahoma. The religious, conservative fanatics have hijacked the state, and as much as small groups of people, like some on this forum and certain friends of mine want things to progress and change for the better, it seems like the majority of the state, and many on this forum, are hell bent on keeping Oklahoma the intolerant, non-diverse buckle of the bible belt.

Tulsa, through creative and opportunistic individuals has transformed into a beautiful city- IMO one of the prettiest in the country. Unfortunately it has also transformed into a somewhat unwelcoming place for many due to the oppressive political/religious climate, which in Oklahoma are one & the same.   

It is really a shame, since it is a beautiful place with many wonderful, friendly people. Oh well. It's Oklahoma's loss, I'm afraid.

Unfortunatly, it's the attitude of "I can't live with what is wrong so I'll leave" that makes it worst.  For every step that you take back, the opposition will step forward one. 

[SXSW]

Unfortunatly, it's the attitude of "I can't live with what is wrong so I'll leave" that makes it worst.  For every step that you take back, the opposition will step forward one. 

And one of the main reasons I returned.  I love Tulsa and want to see it move forward but between the sad state of affairs at City Hall and the far-right state government I can see how many would give up.  I just a bought a house so I'm not going anywhere right away but I don't like the direction we're heading.

[waterboy]

Oklahoma has had a lot of famous, insightful, creative achievers take advantage of that open door policy and they have come from both sides of the political spectrum. Once those people leave, they seldom come back. This forum and this thread are good examples of why. It is hard to believe that in modern times I am seeing the resurgence of the "love it or leave it" philosophy. Probably the worst remark from an educated person on this site that I have ever read. Oklahoma has nice people, nice countryside, low wages, lots of churches, low investment in education, tolerable weather, intolerable politics. An oil state whose large oil companies could not tolerate staying here.

Custo, there is no progress being made. Why enlightened people stay? Its like a perfectly good, cosmetically pretty, 15 year old car whose engine develops a chattering noise. You know the best answer is to cut your losses, scrap the car and buy a newer one as it is likely only the beginning of more repairs. Newer cars have better aesthetics, better systems and are in general better built. But you like the car. The alternative is to try to rebuild the car piece by piece, avoid new car payments and extend its value. That's what those of us who have stayed here tried to do. Once you buy a house and start a family, you're stuck here for a couple decades.

Imagine Oklahoma as a fine example of a '57 Plymouth Belvedere, rusting in a concrete crypt, brought up after a half century. Its all there, but its going to cost a fortune to rebuild, its hopelessly unsafe at any speed and its systems, though workable, are outdated. Tulsa is the seized up gas guzzling motor. We're a museum state. Lookout Mississippi, we're gaining on you!

[custosnox]

Oklahoma has had a lot of famous, insightful, creative achievers take advantage of that open door policy and they have come from both sides of the political spectrum. Once those people leave, they seldom come back. This forum and this thread are good examples of why. It is hard to believe that in modern times I am seeing the resurgence of the "love it or leave it" philosophy. Probably the worst remark from an educated person on this site that I have ever read. Oklahoma has nice people, nice countryside, low wages, lots of churches, low investment in education, tolerable weather, intolerable politics. An oil state whose large oil companies could not tolerate staying here.

Custo, there is no progress being made. Why enlightened people stay? Its like a perfectly good, cosmetically pretty, 15 year old car whose engine develops a chattering noise. You know the best answer is to cut your losses, scrap the car and buy a newer one as it is likely only the beginning of more repairs. Newer cars have better aesthetics, better systems and are in general better built. But you like the car. The alternative is to try to rebuild the car piece by piece, avoid new car payments and extend its value. That's what those of us who have stayed here tried to do. Once you buy a house and start a family, you're stuck here for a couple decades.

Imagine Oklahoma as a fine example of a '57 Plymouth Belvedere, rusting in a concrete crypt, brought up after a half century. Its all there, but its going to cost a fortune to rebuild, its hopelessly unsafe at any speed and its systems, though workable, are outdated. Tulsa is the seized up gas guzzling motor. We're a museum state. Lookout Mississippi, we're gaining on you!

Not exactly an apt comparison since when a car reaches a sad enough state, we send it to the scrap yard and buy a new one.  While we can move to a new city, the old city still remains.  Beyond this, a city represents the livelihoods of millions, past and present.  It is the heart of all that live there, and all that have lived there.  The spirit of the past resides in the history of it, and mingles in the streets with the best and worst of the present.  It endures, in one form or another, from generation to generation.  Regardless of the health of the city, it continues to breath life.  It just comes down to a matter of if that life is a tortured, labored breath of the sick, or a lively, healthy life. 
My point was, if everyone keeps backing down, it just gets worst, unless someone takes a stand.  Makes me think of Clint Eastwood in Gran Tarino. 

[azbadpuppy]

Not exactly an apt comparison since when a car reaches a sad enough state, we send it to the scrap yard and buy a new one.  While we can move to a new city, the old city still remains.  Beyond this, a city represents the livelihoods of millions, past and present.  It is the heart of all that live there, and all that have lived there.  The spirit of the past resides in the history of it, and mingles in the streets with the best and worst of the present.  It endures, in one form or another, from generation to generation.  Regardless of the health of the city, it continues to breath life.  It just comes down to a matter of if that life is a tortured, labored breath of the sick, or a lively, healthy life. 
My point was, if everyone keeps backing down, it just gets worst, unless someone takes a stand.  Makes me think of Clint Eastwood in Gran Tarino. 

I completely agree, and I am very thankful for the many wonderful, creative and insightful people I know in Tulsa and in Oklahoma. I don't believe those people should back down, and none of them are. As far as myself, I didn't have a choice in moving away as my dad was transferred when I was starting high school. But as an adult, I do have a choice in where I choose to live, and unfortunately, like so many other people now, I choose to not live in Tulsa for the reasons already stated.

My point was, Tulsa can keep trying to better itself through civic improvements, better education, urban planning etc. as it should, but until something changes in the political & social climate, it will not be able to attract a more diverse, creative 'working class' it so desperately needs to stay competitive. You can only ride on a century-old reputation for so long....

If my family had not left Tulsa I would probably still be living there, and it will always have a place in my heart. However, too much time has past, and my eyes have been opened to the reality of the situation. But I don't believe anyone should move away simply because of the problems. Stand up and fight, all the way.

The issue going forward, obviously, is how to attract new people.

[waterboy]

You don't attract people by inviting them to leave if they disagree with the status quo. I agree with both of you otherwise, though my comparison works for me. We have held onto this old car till it has now become an antique. Not a classic, not a collectable, just an antique. Just like that old Studebaker Lark station wagon that is a fond memory for me but would be miserable to drive on today's streets, many who left have fond memories of Oklahoma, but its a nightmare when they consider actually living here.

There is no fight left in Tulsa, if there ever was, and there has never been any fight in the rest of the state in my lifetime. Unless you consider fighting non existent threats like gay marriage, loss of gun rights, immigration, liberal media, public schools, and the ever present secular humanism.

Anyway, exactly how do you fight such a strong religious, social, business atmosphere that is so pervasive that they can't even tolerate the few moderate Democrats left? The new state legislature is rumored to be anticipating re-districting in Tulsa to split up the few strongly Democratic neighborhood strongholds left within the city. Who will they have to blame then?

[custosnox]

Anyway, exactly how do you fight such a strong religious, social, business atmosphere that is so pervasive that they can't even tolerate the few moderate Democrats left? The new state legislature is rumored to be anticipating re-districting in Tulsa to split up the few strongly Democratic neighborhood strongholds left within the city. Who will they have to blame then?

It is fought one battle at a time, and with the constitution in hand.  The far right likes to beat everyone over the head with it, but like to leave out the rest of it.  As far as the redrawing of the district lines, that coudl turn into a legal fight that they may not win.

[SXSW]

The issue going forward, obviously, is how to attract new people.

I agree.  If the city can't keep some of its brightest natives how can it expect to attract more people from other areas?  I do think those that are new to Tulsa see it in a different light than those that have grown up here such as myself.  Tulsa is a great city with fantastic neighborhoods, lots of trees and hills, and more wealth than most cities our size thanks to the oil & gas industry and a strong entreprenurial spirit.  The city is growing, albeit slowly, and the metro is growing at a steady rate so it's not like we're some Rust Belt town that continues to lose population.  Oklahoma remains attractive to immigrants but for how long with a far-right legislature and potentially governor seemingly against them?  

I had wanted to get back to Tulsa for several years and started posted on this forum as an ex-Tulsan living somewhere else but visiting as often as possible.  This year is the first time I have actually lived in Tulsa for longer than a couple months since 2003 and for me it has been a mixed bag.  I like the direction downtown and the midtown neighborhood districts are going, and enjoy living near Cherry Street and fixing up an old house there.  Another part of me misses living in a bigger city.  I may not be here forever but while I'm here I want to get involved and do what I can to support those making Tulsa a better place.  Even with the crazy politicians it's still a good place to live and if I decide to move back to Denver in a couple years I know I'll miss being here.