Yesterday was our last chance. . .

[Cats Cats Cats]

Please, let's not engage the "rich getting richer" meme.  It's old, unproductive, and smacks of jealousy.  Money has always bought influence in this country.  Politicians pander craft their message to appeal to the majority of voters: the middle and underclass so they can get elected to do the work of those who actually paid for them to get the message out: the rich and corporations.  If anything, the volume of millionaires and billionaires has grown by an amazing amount in the last century, so technically more people have more influence on those who make the laws.  They've also employed more an more people in the middle class.  By percentage it's remained stagnant, but it's managed to keep up somewhat well with the growth in overall population.

/talking out of my arse

http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/15/pf/millionaires/
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6282M220100309

Millionaires did drop off in 2008.. but 2004 to 2007 they went up 4 times.  Of course a millionaire isn't that much any more. 
"The number of millionaires in the United States surged 14 percent in 2003, to 2.3 million"
"The current total is still well below the record 9.2 million millionaire households reported in 2007, Spectrem said."

I wasn't exactly trying to say the fact that average wages have stayed exactly the same for about 10 years while the top few percent have gained a bunch.

I didn't do it very well but I was trying to talk about investing in the stock market and overall market manipulation (more money more control).  I don't invest in a wide assortment of stocks and the stocks I do invest in I watch.  So I watch things like trades executing 20% below the bid.  The huge sell off triggering stop loss orders to hit at a certain threshold and then jumping right back up when they buy back all the little guys stop loss orders.  Etc etc.  Then you have high frequency trading which is just awesome.  I don't have the ability to manipulate the market like that, it takes big money. 

The big money that has huge incentives like paying 46% less in taxes than my top tax bracket on my full time job, my business, and my other investments in a privately held small business.

[Conan71]

Trog, no doubt there's a fair amount of passive investment which goes on (i.e. day traders) where the mission of the investor isn't providing jobs but soley making money.  Dividend type investors get something in return for their faith in the company and they help to provide jobs.  I don't fault either one for their goals or style of investing. 

I'm incredibly unsophisticated when it comes to buying and selling individual issues.  I buy what I like and understand, and what I see as undervalued, or a simple hunch.  I might also be familiar with their industry and their place in it.  I don't look at number of trades or ratios so much.  The only stock I ever sold due to so few people manipulating the price was BGP (Borders).  That was one I averaged at about .60 and got out around $3.00.  It wound up going higher but I felt it was over-valued even at $2.00 and so few trades made me wonder.

I don't get all technical with my trades and I don't give two shits what guys like Jim Cramer say, since he invests, anything he says is bound to be self-serving.

At any rate, it looks like we had a millionaire bubble in '04 to '07.  Those people were likely previously middle class so it kind of scotches the notion that the middle class is stuck in the middle.

[nathanm]

Those people were likely previously middle class so it kind of scotches the notion that the middle class is stuck in the middle.

Yep, the upper middle class ($75,000-$125,000/yr income is one definition I've seen used) has generally been pulling away from people closer to the median in both wealth and income. The folks higher up on the ladder are increasing their wealth and income faster than the upper middle class. It's like the expansion of the universe as a result of the big bang. The farther away you look (from the perspective of a poor person), the faster they're flying away from you.

[Conan71]

Yep, the upper middle class ($75,000-$125,000/yr income is one definition I've seen used) has generally been pulling away from people closer to the median in both wealth and income. The folks higher up on the ladder are increasing their wealth and income faster than the upper middle class. It's like the expansion of the universe as a result of the big bang. The farther away you look (from the perspective of a poor person), the faster they're flying away from you.

Those people in the $75 to $125K income bracket typically have college degrees or post-graduate degrees.  They have put forth the time and effort and are rewarded for the skills they bring to the job market.  Any poor person who has the desire and cognitive capacity can manage to get a masters or doctorate level degree.

[nathanm]

Those people in the $75 to $125K income bracket typically have college degrees or post-graduate degrees.  They have put forth the time and effort and are rewarded for the skills they bring to the job market.  Any poor person who has the desire and cognitive capacity can manage to get a masters or doctorate level degree.

Yeah, they can go tens of thousands of dollars in debt and then not find a job that will service that kind of debt. (seriously, I know a bunch of people with masters and doctorate degrees who have been laid off in the last couple of years)

The point is that even people who make it into lower level management aren't keeping up with the gains made by upper level management and professionals, who are completely eclipsed by the gains of executives and other high-income earning people.

You do realize that at some point when the rest of the country gets squeezed out, there will be lots of resentment and possibly organized action against the haves? It has happened time and time again throughout history. That's why the middle class is so important. They make up a large portion of the population, and they're the ones who organize revolutions when society stops working for them. Gotta keep 'em fat and happy or they'll revolt. Unless you have the Stasi or KGB on your side. Then it doesn't really matter what happens to anybody outside of the ruling class.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Nobody invests n the stock market to create jobs.  They do it to make money.  The reduced capital gains tax reduces the investment in small businesses.  How man Tulsa based business that aren't on the stock market are you invested in?  Now how much do you have invested in other companies?  (don't answer that). Why can I invest in another company and make money I can pay as low as 15% regardless of my income but when I invest in my own business I can pay up to 38%.  "Small Business" is the way to make jobs as all the stats say.  But the tax policy is slanted towards huge companies.  How many small businesses in Tulsa are publicly traded companies?  Probably not very many.  Does anybody on here know somebody who owns a company that is publicly traded?

I'm not saying that it is less risky to invest in new business.  I am saying there is 0 incentive to do so.  For those with lots of cash.

[Red Arrow]

Yeah, they can go tens of thousands of dollars in debt and then not find a job that will service that kind of debt. (seriously, I know a bunch of people with masters and doctorate degrees who have been laid off in the last couple of years)

I can't dispute that but it does help to choose a major that has decent prospects of a career opportunity.  I see two main paths in college.  One is the age old path of the wealthy for their kids to become more culturally well rounded.  It  does not necessarily lead to a job but if you are born into money, all you have to do is not lose it.

The second path is what most (myself included) do which is to try to prepare for a more financially rewarding career that hopefully you can also enjoy.  Some majors, I'll pick on Liberal Arts since I'm an engineer, make you more aware of many things but don't necessarily prepare you for a career that will put  you in a financial class commensurate with your efforts.  However, that "well rounded-ness" may make you fit into many more spots than a more specific degree.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Degrees don't really get you te type of money to get the top .5%

[Hoss]

Degrees don't really get you te type of money to get the top .5%

That usually requires knee-pads...

[Conan71]

Degrees don't really get you te type of money to get the top .5%

Mainly because it's either hitting on the right opportunity like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or you are born into it.

I don't know of anyone who aspires to be in the top .5% except for envious libs 

Why is there such an obsession with demonizing the top earners in this country?  Those people typically give the most to the arts, health foundations, scholarship funds, charitable community foundations, etc.  They are the biggest consumers.  I really could care less I will never reach that level.  I'm more than happy with what I have and my real wealth isn't measured in dollars anyhow.

[nathanm]

I really could care less I will never reach that level.  I'm more than happy with what I have and my real wealth isn't measured in dollars anyhow.

I completely agree with this.

I do not agree that the wealthy are necessarily all nice people who do good things with their money. Some of them lie and cheat, as is evidenced by the many accounting scandals in recent years. On the other hand, some less wealthy also lie and cheat. They just don't usually have the capacity to do as much damage. On the gripping hand, the wealthy have a system of Government that generally is set up to work for them, whereas we mere mortals do not.

Given that the wealthy are out there advocating in Government for their own benefit, I fail to see why the less well off should refrain from doing the same. Insert something about a goose and gander here.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Mainly because it's either hitting on the right opportunity like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or you are born into it.

I don't know of anyone who aspires to be in the top .5% except for envious libs 

Why is there such an obsession with demonizing the top earners in this country?  Those people typically give the most to the arts, health foundations, scholarship funds, charitable community foundations, etc.  They are the biggest consumers.  I really could care less I will never reach that level.  I'm more than happy with what I have and my real wealth isn't measured in dollars anyhow.

Given "globalization" (AKA we want to pay you as much as workers in China) and the increasing gap in money (middle class's wages stagnant for quite a while).  It will be important to be in the top few percent to keep standard of living.  Which will in turn get your kids into the club, etc etc.

[Gaspar]

I completely agree with this.

I do not agree that the wealthy are necessarily all nice people who do good things with their money. Some of them lie and cheat, as is evidenced by the many accounting scandals in recent years. On the other hand, some less wealthy also lie and cheat. They just don't usually have the capacity to do as much damage. On the gripping hand, the wealthy have a system of Government that generally is set up to work for them, whereas we mere mortals do not.

Given that the wealthy are out there advocating in Government for their own benefit, I fail to see why the less well off should refrain from doing the same. Insert something about a goose and gander here.

Again. . .I say rejoice then.  As a "mere mortal" you should be enjoying this victory.  This economy will continue to represent the spoils of your conquest.  The mighty War on Wealth is at hand.  Continue to rattle your swards. Rejoice!

[nathanm]

Again. . .I say rejoice then.  As a "mere mortal" you should be enjoying this victory.  This economy will continue to represent the spoils of your conquest.  The mighty War on Wealth is at hand.  Continue to rattle your swards. Rejoice!

The economy will continue to represent the dithering of the Fed in the face of impending doom, not anything the Democrats did. (other than their too small by at least half stimulus)

There isn't a war on wealth anywhere except in the mind of yourself, the right wing nutjobs, and the feckless Congressional Republicans who will say anything, no matter how inaccurate, in a cynical attempt to get votes no matter what the ultimate cost to the American people. They've been talking gloom and doom since day one of the Obama Presidency, yet their dire predictions have failed to come to pass. Because they're completely wrong on the issues.

Doom may be upon us, but the reasons for it are far beyond the analytical capacity that the right wing radio talkers have demonstrated. Hell, they refuse to listen to Reagan Republicans, instead preferring to call them turncoats.

[Cats Cats Cats]

I like how the highest tax rate averaged about 75% or so from 1932 to 1982 but 39% is just going to make the whole country collapse.