The New Mosque

[dbacks fan]

I have been listening, reading, and seeing this debate/argument/comparison to this Mosque for the last week or so. From some of the things I've read there are already two Muslim Mosques closer to ground zero than this one that is proposed. A Greek Orthodox temple that was appearently acros the street from ground zero has been refused to be allowed to be rebuilt (it was there before 9/11). Everything from Hitler to Rosa Parks, to the KKK has been thrown at this topic. Why don't you include Warren Jeff's and the FLDS, the Christians and abortion clinics, the Catholic Church and school playgrounds, bars and churches distance between each other, warm strong beer and liquor laws and how late and where liquor can be sold, and what constitutes a bar into this?

Are they being insenseitve to the events of 9/11? Yes. Are they violating county, city, state building codes? Who knows other than the city of Manhattan. Am I infavor of this? No, and if Pelosi wants to knock on my door and ask me why I oppose it I will tell her. As long as they are not violating county, city, and state laws, they can build it where they want. If they have manipulated those laws and ordinaces then they are suspect.

Do I think that this is in poor taste for location? Yes. But if you start telling people that you can't build somthing that fits in the law and codes for the site, you have gone where I don't want to be. You have crossed into socialism/dictatorship.

[nathanm]

Let me walk something back. Apparently I was wrong. While Park51 is still not a mosque, they are reserving space within to have an actual mosque at some point in the future. Park51 will have an interfaith board of directors. So when it opens, it will not be a mosque in any sense of the word. At some point in the future, it probably will contain a mosque, but will still be a community center.

I still don't see what's insensitive about that, unless you are of the belief that all Muslims are jointly responsible for 9/11. I can't imagine how on Earth one can hold that view without also examining the equally bloody history of other faiths practiced in this country.

If the guy that bombed the mosque in Jacksonville recently turns out to be Christian, will you equally attribute that act to all Christians? Somehow I doubt it. (and good on you if you don't!)

[dbacks fan]

I can't imagine how on Earth one can hold that view without also examining the equally bloody history of other faiths practiced in this country.

Outside of the US, lets look at the Greeks and the Romans. The Colliseum in Greece that is a pilgramage where thousands were slaughtered, as well as other places in Greece and Italy where they were thrown to the Lions or pitted against the Roman Army. The Colliseum and the Acropoplis, and the Parthenon, are tourists meccas for the history of the events that happened there. There are other places that were killing grounds that a lot of people go to to stand where the murders occured.

[nathanm]

Outside of the US, lets look at the Greeks and the Romans. The Colliseum in Greece that is a pilgramage where thousands were slaughtered, as well as other places in Greece and Italy where they were thrown to the Lions or pitted against the Roman Army. The Colliseum and the Acropoplis, and the Parthenon, are tourists meccas for the history of the events that happened there. There are other places that were killing grounds that a lot of people go to to stand where the murders occured.

What does that have to do with a community center?

I truly can't grasp where the opposition is coming from, aside from the jamesrage types who have this strange idea that Muslims are attempting to take over America. The head of Park51 is doing his absolute best to promote moderate, Americanized Islam, yet here we are excoriating the fellow at the behest of the complete nutjobs who started this whole mess. People whose xenophobia is so bad it makes the BNP blush. People who are absolutely convinced that Obama is an extremist Muslim hell bent on instituting sharia law.

Even Pat Buchanan thinks the whole thing is ridiculous. When Pat Buchanan and I agree on something, you can be sure something pretty hinky is going on.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/aug/18/poison-behind-new-york-mosque-furore

[dbacks fan]

What does that have to do with a community center?

I truly can't grasp where the opposition is coming from, aside from the jamesrage types who have this strange idea that Muslims are attempting to take over America. The head of Park51 is doing his absolute best to promote moderate, Americanized Islam, yet here we are excoriating the fellow at the behest of the complete nutjobs who started this whole mess. People whose xenophobia is so bad it makes the BNP blush. People who are absolutely convinced that Obama is an extremist Muslim hell bent on instituting sharia law.

Even Pat Buchanan thinks the whole thing is ridiculous. When Pat Buchanan and I agree on something, you can be sure something pretty hinky is going on.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2010/aug/18/poison-behind-new-york-mosque-furore

What I was refering to is the notion that over the centuries there have been numerous religous crusades in the name of a specific religion. Whether it was the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisation, The Civil War, the IRA against England, the PLO against Isreal, North against South Viet Nam, Korea, Romans vs Catholics, Spanish vs American, US vs British, The Munich Isreali athelets, Sadat, Begin, it's all in the name of religion.

[we vs us]

I have been listening, reading, and seeing this debate/argument/comparison to this Mosque for the last week or so. From some of the things I've read there are already two Muslim Mosques closer to ground zero than this one that is proposed. A Greek Orthodox temple that was appearently acros the street from ground zero has been refused to be allowed to be rebuilt (it was there before 9/11). Everything from Hitler to Rosa Parks, to the KKK has been thrown at this topic. Why don't you include Warren Jeff's and the FLDS, the Christians and abortion clinics, the Catholic Church and school playgrounds, bars and churches distance between each other, warm strong beer and liquor laws and how late and where liquor can be sold, and what constitutes a bar into this?

Are they being insenseitve to the events of 9/11? Yes. Are they violating county, city, state building codes? Who knows other than the city of Manhattan. Am I infavor of this? No, and if Pelosi wants to knock on my door and ask me why I oppose it I will tell her. As long as they are not violating county, city, and state laws, they can build it where they want. If they have manipulated those laws and ordinaces then they are suspect.

Do I think that this is in poor taste for location? Yes. But if you start telling people that you can't build somthing that fits in the law and codes for the site, you have gone where I don't want to be. You have crossed into socialism/dictatorship.

Just FYI, they have approval from all the necessary licensing authorities to go ahead with the project. 

[nathanm]

What I was refering to is the notion that over the centuries there have been numerous religous crusades in the name of a specific religion. Whether it was the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisation, The Civil War, the IRA against England, the PLO against Isreal, North against South Viet Nam, Korea, Romans vs Catholics, Spanish vs American, US vs British, The Munich Isreali athelets, Sadat, Begin, it's all in the name of religion.

Yeah, that's why I find the furor over so contrived.

[Conan71]

The whole "at ground zero" thing is a canard. You can't even see the former WTC site from the former Burlington Coat Factory. Sometimes I wonder if the people frothing at the mouth over this have ever even been to the WTC site, much less New York City.

Were you aware this site was in the debris field?  It's been reported that a landing gear from one of the planes hit this building.  It doesn't make the ground there sacred by any means. 

Point is, who are we to discount the emotions and feelings of those who survived the attacks and the families of those who lost loved ones by saying things like: "It's been almost 10 years go get help."

70% of Americans oppose the location of this "community center", you are going to be hard-pressed to convince me that 70% of all Americans are whack-a-doodles.  We owe the Arab world no more than they owe us in terms of respect and honoring each others rights.  They have the right to build the center there if they so wish.  Seeing it's a provocative issue, I find it inadvisable to do so.

[nathanm]

70% of Americans oppose the location of this "community center", you are going to be hard-pressed to convince me that 70% of all Americans are whack-a-doodles.  We owe the Arab world no more than they owe us in terms of respect and honoring each others rights.  They have the right to build the center there if they so wish.  Seeing it's a provocative issue, I find it inadvisable to do so.

We owe ourselves the respect of upholding the principles our country was founded upon.

I don't think 70% of Americans are whackjobs like the ones who started this whole mess, they've just bought into the lies because the media has largely been repeating them uncritically. They don't know that this place is no more "at ground zero" than the strip club equidistant. They don't know that there is already a real live mosque down the street that's been there since 1970 (but is woefully inadequate for its membership). They don't know that you can't even see the Park51 site from ground zero. They don't know that it's going to be a fairly normal looking building, and not some Taj Mahal looking thing. (yes, I know the Taj Mahal is not a mosque..but it sure looks similar to the stereotypical mosque)

They don't know that it's being built by a moderate Muslim who has been attempting to spread understanding of the US throughout the Muslim world for years. They don't remember how Fox News was calling him one of the good guys until a couple of weeks ago when they started calling him a "radical muslim."

Hell, they think it's going to be a mosque, rather than a community center that might have a mosque built inside someday. That everything about the name "ground zero mosque" is completely inaccurate.

As far as "in the debris field," most of lower Manhattan was in the debris field. Remember all that dust? 

At this point, if it doesn't get built, we're just going to be seen among the moderate Muslims as the intolerant haters that the radicals have been claiming we are all along.

This issue is one of the better examples in recent memory of how if you repeat lies often enough, people think it's the truth.

[Townsend]

This is why this is getting so much attention.  Many of us do not take the necessary time to educate ourselves before forming an opinion.  We hear something from the talking heads and spew it out of our word holes with no thought to the contrary.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100819/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_poll_obama_s_religion

WASHINGTON – Americans increasingly are convinced — incorrectly — that President Barack Obama is a Muslim, and a growing number are thoroughly confused about his religion.

Nearly one in five people, or 18 percent, said they think Obama is Muslim, up from the 11 percent who said so in March 2009, according to a poll released Thursday. The proportion who correctly say he is a Christian is down to just 34 percent.

The largest share of people, 43 percent, said they don't know his religion, an increase from the 34 percent who said that in early 2009.

The survey, conducted by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center and its affiliated Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, is based on interviews conducted before the controversy over whether Muslims should be permitted to construct a mosque near the World Trade Center site. Obama has said he believes Muslims have the right to build an Islamic center there, though he's also said he won't take a position on whether they should actually build it.

The suckiest suck about this suck?  It shouldn't matter.

[Conan71]

Interesting op-ed piece which examines the reluctance many have to this mosque and the root of their mistrust of Islam.  As anyone who has lived through the last 31 years as a teen or adult will recall from the Ayatollah Khomeini forward, we've faced increasingly hostile rhetoric and actions from the Muslim world ever since.  What have we heard that suggests tolerance and acceptance of our way of life?  I truly do like the author's suggestions about reciprocity.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/08/10/opinion/A-mosque-at-ground-zero-30135610.html

The plan to build a mosque so close to the site of the atrocity has caused outrage in the US. Opponents consider it a slap in the face for all Americans, especially those who lost loved ones in the conflagration. To them it adds insult to injury and conveys a gloating, in-your-face message from Islam: "Ha ha! We destroyed your skyscrapers and killed your people, and now we're celebrating by building this triumphal monument right next to the ruins. And there's nothing you can do about it, suckers!" Thais will understand if they imagine how they would feel if a Burmese cultural centre were to be built near the ruins at Ayutthaya. 

Proponents of the project, including Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Jewish and Christian notables, argue that it will convey a different message. It will show that the US remains firm in its commitment to freedom of religion and tolerance even in the face of severe provocation. It will be a symbol of moral strength, representing a victory of American ideals over baser instincts like vengefulness and hatred.           

Proponents also point out that the sponsors are moderate Muslims whose motto is "Improving Muslim-West relations". To this end, they're building a 13-storey, US$100 million edifice that will serve as a community centre for all New Yorkers, with an auditorium, library, art studios, swimming pool, gym, basketball court, restaurant, and childcare services. 

When I first read about this project, I was against it - not only for the reasons cited above, but also because the media was calling it a mosque. I pictured a huge edifice with a dome and minarets rising above the Manhattan skyline, with the star and crescent of Islam brazenly thrust on high like a middle finger directed at Ground Zero. Turns out that's not the case. The building, called Park 51, is to be an Islamic cultural centre, open to all. It will contain a mosque, but the mosque will take up only a small portion of the space. There are to be Jews and Christians as well as Muslims on the board of directors. The Cordoba Initiative's website, www.cordobainitiative.org, proclaims its commitment to building "a world-class facility that promotes tolerance � and positive interaction between the Muslim World and the West."

One thing is for sure. They know how to press the right PR buttons.

But maybe not enough of them, because sceptics are asking where the money is coming from. At the time I write, the answer is unclear.  I hardly need to remind the reader that $100 million will buy a lot of noodles.     

Sceptics also suggest that if the Cordoba Initiative is sincere about improving Muslim-Western relations, it should start by putting its cultural centre someplace else. That would show sensitivity to the feelings of the grieving friends and relatives of the 3,000 victims. But the current location seems to be a done deal, approved by the powers-that-be in New York.       

So long as the new building is not visibly Islamic, and so long as it remains a community centre under the control of a multi-religious governing board, I see no objection to its construction. Why would I object if it were visibly Islamic? Because it is so close to Ground Zero; because the 9/11 terrorists were Muslims whose crime was inspired by their perceptions of what their religion required; because a visibly Islamic building would offend the sensitivities of those who lost loved ones; and because it would immediately become the target of every gun-toting redneck, right-wing wacko and nutcase in the country. And we've got a lot of them.

However innocuous it may be in appearance, some sceptics will see an Islamic cultural centre as a Trojan Horse. They have a point.  Things change, as the Buddha wisely reminds us. It's easy to imagine a scenario in which the current good-hearted sponsors might be eased out of power and replaced by hardline Islamic elements with more sinister goals. Militant Islam tends to operate that way.       

So vigilance and some sort of oversight are needed to prevent Park 51 from falling into the wrong hands. Happily, we already have an American institution uniquely suited to meet that need. Our feisty, baying-hound news media are highly skilled at sniffing out atrocities, scandals and other wrongdoing. They will fulfill the dual function of watchdog and whistle-blower.     

One final point. If the Cordoba Initiative is so eager to promote religious tolerance, it ought to start where tolerance is needed most: with Islam itself. It could begin by introducing Muslims to the concept of reciprocity - give and take; do as you would be done by; you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.   

For non-Muslims, one of the most bothersome aspects of Islam is its utter lack of reciprocity. We get the impression that Muslims want the whole enchilada. When they're in the minority, they demand rights for themselves that they sometimes deny to others when they're in the majority. Some Islamic countries persecute their religious minorities; others merely harass them. The Pakistani government's persecution of the Ahmadis and the Iranian government's persecution of Baha'is are prime examples. Even supposedly moderate Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia have been hassling Hindus and Christians lately. But when Muslims from these countries migrate to America and Europe, they expect equal rights.   

So if the moderate Muslims of the Cordoba Initiative are sincere about promoting tolerance, let them begin in their ancestral homelands. They might start with Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are building mosques all over the world, but they do not permit a single church, synagogue or temple to be built in Saudi Arabia. That's not reciprocity. Perhaps most outrageous of all is the situation on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, where not one, but two mosques have long occupied the site of the erstwhile Jewish temple. You'd think, in return, the Saudis would throw Judaism a scrap by permitting at least one tiny synagogue on their vast territory; but no, that's unthinkable.     

The Cordoba Initiative could score significant PR points and earn the grudging respect of even American right-wingers if it were to embark on a campaign to build tolerance toward non-Muslim religions in the Muslim-majority countries of Asia and Africa. That would be putting its money where its mouth is. All $100 million of it.

[akupetsky]

70% of Americans oppose the location of this "community center", you are going to be hard-pressed to convince me that 70% of all Americans are whack-a-doodles.  We owe the Arab world no more than they owe us in terms of respect and honoring each others rights.  They have the right to build the center there if they so wish.  Seeing it's a provocative issue, I find it inadvisable to do so.

A poll out today says that only 54% oppose the building.  http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2010/20_favor_mosque_near_ground_zero_54_oppose.  A large percentage isn't even following the story (they have a life). 

[Conan71]

More stats from the Rasmussen poll:

"Just 20% of Americans favor the building of an Islamic mosque near the Ground Zero site of the World Trade Center in New York City, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.

Some have argued that the mosque will "honor" the 9/11 victims by promoting the peaceful side of Islam, but only 30% are even somewhat confident that the proposed mosque is being built to honor those who died in the 9/11 attacks. Fifty-eight percent (58%) don't share that confidence. This includes 15% who are Very Confident and 32% who are Not At All Confident."

[guido911]

Well this event will certainly improve dialog:

http://dailycaller.com/2010/08/18/fla-city-denies-permit-for-911-quran-burning/

[Cats Cats Cats]

Oh geeze, now they really have done it!

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/outrage-over-plans-to-build-library-next-to-sarah-palin-201008193017/

Talk about rubbing it in.