The New Mosque

[nathanm]

Right or wrong, a lot of Americans see the community center/mosque as an "in your face" move rather than a bridge builder.  A lot of Muslims see American policy as an "in your face" policy rather than trying to get along.  Both sides need to examine the PR side involved.  As a PC liberal, you should understand that even if you disagree.

I guess what I don't get about the in your face part is that it's not at all in anybody's face. It's nearby, but we're talking about lower Manhattan here, all of lower Manhattan is nearby. The island is less wide than the distance between the west and east sides of the IDL at that point. Two or three blocks away can seem like a different city entirely.

[Red Arrow]

It doesn't matter who's insulted by what.  They get to do what they want.  They've passed all the local tests, attained all the permits and the setbacks and the whathaveyous in order to get it done.  They followed all the rules. As I understand it, they even made sure they did a townhall meeting or two before finalizing plans.  After satisfying all those conditions, it's all theirs.

If what you're agitating for is for them to listen a little closer to you and your protestations as they deliberate, then fine.  I'm all for it.  They get to make up their own mind and decide to weigh your objection in their own way.  That's the way it should go. 

If you're suggesting that we should abridge their freedom  by judicial or legal means -- outside of the normal channels -- you're dead wrong. 

(And seriously, you guys and your whining are starting to sound a lot like us so-called PC Liberals and our you-are-a-beautiful-and-unique-snowflake culture:  "Pay attention to how I feel!  How I feel is important! ALL THE TIME TO EVERYONE!  AND SHOULD GUILT YOU INTO TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOW I FEEL ABOUT 9/11.")

I agree, they have the legal right to build it, period.  Just as WalMart has the right to build the places they have built.  Just as property owners have the right to tear down Art-deco buildings in Tulsa and put in surface parking lots.  And so on. 

I think "they" should listen to the protests and recognize that they are winning few friends by proceeding at that location.  They, just as some less favored Tulsa developers do,  can proceed regardless of the protests.

[Red Arrow]

I guess what I don't get about the in your face part is that it's not at all in anybody's face.

A lot of vocal people seem to think so.  You may choose words other than "in your face" to describe the situation but it exists.

[nathanm]

A lot of vocal people seem to think so.  You may choose words other than "in your face" to describe the situation but it exists.

Aside from the yahoos that are clearly using this for political gain, as they supported it before they didn't, I think there's a misinformation problem involved, thanks to the descriptions this project has been getting in the media. "Ground Zero Mosque," for example, being wrong on two counts (it's neither at ground zero in the usual sense of the term nor a mosque in the usual sense of the word).

It's like us getting up at arms about a couple of nice looking but structurally unsalvageable buildings downtown.

Your position also ignores the fact that there's been a mosque on Park Place since 1970. Before the WTC was even built. Nobody said boo about it, but build a community center and reserve some space for the mosque inside, and it suddenly becomes a big deal? It makes no sense.

Seriously..check out that second TDS clip I posted last night. Charlton Heston gives an impassioned defense against this sort of ridiculousness.

[Hoss]

Aside from the yahoos that are clearly using this for political gain, as they supported it before they didn't, I think there's a misinformation problem involved, thanks to the descriptions this project has been getting in the media. "Ground Zero Mosque," for example, being wrong on two counts (it's neither at ground zero in the usual sense of the term nor a mosque in the usual sense of the word).

It's like us getting up at arms about a couple of nice looking but structurally unsalvageable buildings downtown.

Your position also ignores the fact that there's been a mosque on Park Place since 1970. Before the WTC was even built. Nobody said boo about it, but build a community center and reserve some space for the mosque inside, and it suddenly becomes a big deal? It makes no sense.

Seriously..check out that second TDS clip I posted last night. Charlton Heston gives an impassioned defense against this sort of ridiculousness.

But dontcha know Nate, that Charlton Heston's opinion only matters as it relates to guns...

[nathanm]

But dontcha know Nate, that Charlton Heston's opinion only matters as it relates to guns...

Perhaps, but I thought John Stewart saying "I was wrong" was pretty neat, too. Rare to see that in a public figure.

[guido911]

Some construction workers are refusing to work on the mosque, and encouraging others to do the same.

Some union construction workers say they will refuse to help build an Islamic mosque and cultural center planned for Lower Manhattan.

The BlueCollarCorner blog has started what is called thE 911 Hard Hat Pledge to rally union and no-union tradesmen to refuse to work the site near Ground Zero.

Andy Sullivan, a field super for A big union construction outfit, is behind the pledge.

Sullivan wrote, "My fellow Americans stand together and pledge not to work this hurtful insensitive project. Without us this sacrilige cannot be built."
The planned 13-story Park51 has exploded into a national debate after President Obama appeared to offer support for the project.

The Building Trades Employers' Association has not yet taken a formal position on the project or a potential boycott by union workers.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/local_news/manhattan/construction-workers-refuse-to-build-mosque-20100820-lgf

Here is a link to a blog containing the 9/11 Hard Hat Pledge:

http://www.bluecollarcorner.com/blog/?p=750

[Hoss]

Somehow I'm guessing they'll not have any problems finding others who will...

[Red Arrow]

But dontcha know Nate, that Charlton Heston's opinion only matters as it relates to guns...

You are probably too young to remember Charlton Heston as Moses even though the 10 Commandments shows on TV almost every year.

[Red Arrow]

Aside from the yahoos that are clearly using this for political gain, as they supported it before they didn't, I think there's a misinformation problem involved, thanks to the descriptions this project has been getting in the media. "Ground Zero Mosque," for example, being wrong on two counts (it's neither at ground zero in the usual sense of the term nor a mosque in the usual sense of the word).

It's like us getting up at arms about a couple of nice looking but structurally unsalvageable buildings downtown.

Your position also ignores the fact that there's been a mosque on Park Place since 1970. Before the WTC was even built. Nobody said boo about it, but build a community center and reserve some space for the mosque inside, and it suddenly becomes a big deal? It makes no sense.

Seriously..check out that second TDS clip I posted last night. Charlton Heston gives an impassioned defense against this sort of ridiculousness.

What actually bothers me the most is the attitude that the people protesting the Community Center / Mosque shouldn't have the right to do so.  Arguments about it being a few feet too far from or too close to the point of impact of the Trade Center buildings are strictly arbitrary numbers.  I don't live in the area so I don't know how close too close is.   I suspect you don't really know either.   I'm not going to get into the talking points on either side of this issue since I don't really care if it gets built or not.  20 years (an arbitrary number I have chosen) from now it will probably not be an issue.  At the moment, I think the Community Center / Mosque is more divisive than uniting.

[nathanm]

What actually bothers me the most is the attitude that the people protesting the Community Center / Mosque shouldn't have the right to do so.  Arguments about it being a few feet too far from or too close to the point of impact of the Trade Center buildings are strictly arbitrary numbers.  I don't live in the area so I don't know how close too close is.   I suspect you don't really know either.   I'm not going to get into the talking points on either side of this issue since I don't really care if it gets built or not.  20 years (an arbitrary number I have chosen) from now it will probably not be an issue.  At the moment, I think the Community Center / Mosque is more divisive than uniting.

I don't think anyone is saying that people don't have the right to be against it, only that it is unreasonable to be against it given the totality of the facts. (I make an exception for the families of people killed at WTC, as they have a good reason to be unreasonable)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's only become a divisive national issue because some Fox News folks decided they could score political points. New Yorkers were dealing with it on their own just fine for a long while. I'd presume better faith in their argument had they not immediately turned on a guy they previously described as "one of the good guys" and started calling him a radical imam. Combine that with their trying to push the idea last week that the State Department is paying for him to go on a fundraising trip when he's making the same sort of outreach trip he's been making for several years now and he's barred from fundraising activity on the government-paid trip and it paints a nasty picture that quite honestly upsets me.

FWIW, I've actually been there, and even happened to walk down Park Place when I got turned around after coming out of the subway. Not that that makes me any more qualified to decide what's best for New York City, but you asked.

[Red Arrow]

I don't think anyone is saying that people don't have the right to be against it, only that it is unreasonable to be against it given the totality of the facts. (I make an exception for the families of people killed at WTC, as they have a good reason to be unreasonable)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's only become a divisive national issue because some Fox News folks decided they could score political points. New Yorkers were dealing with it on their own just fine for a long while. I'd presume better faith in their argument had they not immediately turned on a guy they previously described as "one of the good guys" and started calling him a radical imam. Combine that with their trying to push the idea last week that the State Department is paying for him to go on a fundraising trip when he's making the same sort of outreach trip he's been making for several years now and he's barred from fundraising activity on the government-paid trip and it paints a nasty picture that quite honestly upsets me.

FWIW, I've actually been there, and even happened to walk down Park Place when I got turned around after coming out of the subway. Not that that makes me any more qualified to decide what's best for New York City, but you asked.

Totality of facts:  Fox is certainly playing up one side.  Omission by the MSM is just as guilty.  We probably won't really get a reasonable set of facts.

I think the Imam has been prohibited from directly raising funds and I expect he will abide by that.  Just his presence will probably generate some funds.

I've been to NYC too, but a long time ago.  When our family lived in PA we went to the NYC boat show several years and ate at Mama Leones afterward.  I also went on a High School class trip to NYC, took the Staten Island ferry and did all the touristy things.  I also went to the World's Fair in NY in the mid 60s twice.   Just a visit doesn't count as a qualifier to judge how New York residents feel.  So, actually, I didn't ask if you had  been there.  If you had told me you lived there since 9/11, I would agree you had some proper insight.

[nathanm]

Just a visit doesn't count as a qualifier to judge how New York residents feel.  So, actually, I didn't ask if you had  been there.  If you had told me you lived there since 9/11, I would agree you had some proper insight.

As I said, I don't claim to know how they feel, I only claim to know that two blocks away from WTC seems a lot farther to me there than it would here.

Either way, it is and was their decision and they made it.

[Red Arrow]

As I said, I don't claim to know how they feel, I only claim to know that two blocks away from WTC seems a lot farther to me there than it would here.

Either way, it is and was their decision and they made it.

Fair enough.

[Red Arrow]

As I said, I don't claim to know how they feel, I only claim to know that two blocks away from WTC seems a lot farther to me there than it would here.

I won't argue about the perception of distance but you got me curious about a comparison of actual distance to something Tulsans could readily visualize.  From Google maps I determined the following.

NYC:
Starting at Vesey St and W. Broadway, walk NE on W Broadway approximately .1 mi to Park Place, turn right, go a few hundred feet to Burlington Coat Factory.

Tulsa:
Starting at McNellies on 1st St walk to Greenwood Ave, turn left on Greenwood and go approximately 1/2 way to the Railroad tracks.


Edit:

If the towers had fallen like a tree rather than collapse, they could have hit the Burlington Coat Factory.  The closer tower could have hit the BCF at about 3/4 of the tower's height.