Illegal Immigration on the Decline

[Conan71]

What I meant was "how are they not paying their own way." Obviously it's legally fraud if they make up a social security number, but it's harmless if their withholding is still taken out and they don't accidentally hit someone else's number. The tax is being paid, regardless of what number they put on the form.

Do you think the IRS would tell you it's harmless if you or I tried to pull that?  Don't drop the soap...

[nathanm]

Do you think the IRS would tell you it's harmless if you or I tried to pull that?  Don't drop the soap...

I think the IRS would care exactly the same amount if you or I did that as they do when illegal immigrants do it. We're just easier to find. They have our address already. 

I'm not arguing legality, I'm talking about the actual effects, which admittedly can be significant when the made up SSN happens to already exist. (and that makes it felony identity theft) At least as far as SS/MC, they're paying into a pot they'll never see a dime from.

There are better ways to reduce this problem with changes in procedure rather than using the stick of criminal penalties.

[Hoss]

I think the IRS would care exactly the same amount if you or I did that as they do when illegal immigrants do it. We're just easier to find. They have our address already. 

I'm not arguing legality, I'm talking about the actual effects, which admittedly can be significant when the made up SSN happens to already exist. (and that makes it felony identity theft) At least as far as SS/MC, they're paying into a pot they'll never see a dime from.

There are better ways to reduce this problem with changes in procedure rather than using the stick of criminal penalties.

Why Nathan?  They're here ILLEGALLY.  That's the key word. IL-LE-GAL.  As in 'it's criminal to be in the US without documentation that you are either a citizen, or a national, on on a valid work Visa.

I have nothing against immigrants.  ILLEGAL ones, on the other hand.

[nathanm]

Why Nathan?  They're here ILLEGALLY.  That's the key word. IL-LE-GAL.  As in 'it's criminal to be in the US without documentation that you are either a citizen, or a national, on on a valid work Visa.

I have nothing against immigrants.  ILLEGAL ones, on the other hand.

Part of living in a free society is revisiting our criminal code from time to time and determining if it is working and if not, what changes may be made to make it work better. Sometimes that involves increasing penalties. (most all of the time these days) Sometimes that involves completely changing the law or possibly repealing it entirely.

Illegal does not necessarily mean immoral.

This side rail of a discussion is not really central to my point anyway. My point is that we should allow more legal immigrants. In fact, I am of the opinion that we should allow most any Mexican or Canadian[1] without a history of violent crime or other serious felonies into the country. If there's no work for them here, they won't come[2]. If they can get in legally, they won't cross illegally. They will be within the system instead of without. We can more effectively tax them for the costs involved in their being here. We can more effectively keep track of them, as they will have bank accounts and other electronic records giving us an idea where they are in case we need to toss them out.

There will be many fewer attempting to cross illegally, as there is no benefit over crossing legally to people whom we would otherwise let in. This allows for faster response time when someone is detected in their attempt to cross illegally. It allows us to bring technology to bear on the problem in a more effective manner by reducing the number of humans needed to a level that is possible, budget-wise.

I want to keep the dangerous people out. I don't really care whether or not the rest live here or in Mexico or Canada or Ireland or anywhere else they like.

[1] possibly others, I just picked land borders because it was convenient
[2] which is why illegal border crossings are down right now

[Red Arrow]

but it's harmless if their withholding is still taken out and they don't accidentally hit someone else's number.

Happened to a friend at work (Hispanic, legal, born in the USA citizen).  His wife's number got used by someone several states away.  Lucky for my friend it was not near Tulsa or he would still be trying to prove he didn't owe more income tax to the IRS.  Want to deal with the IRS?

[nathanm]

Happened to a friend at work (Hispanic, legal, born in the USA citizen).  His wife's number got used by someone several states away.  Lucky for my friend it was not near Tulsa or he would still be trying to prove he didn't owe more income tax to the IRS.  Want to deal with the IRS?

I specifically noted that this is a real problem. It's one of those problems we make for ourselves, though. People are going to come here no matter what we do if they think there is economic opportunity, so by making the path of least resistance involve something that can have bad effects on other people, we contribute to that result.

I just don't see the point of fighting against the tide when we could just build our sandcastle on higher ground.

[Red Arrow]

I specifically noted that this is a real problem.

And I provided a specific example.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And all those "costs" to taxpayers are a drop in the bucket compared to the savings everyone here - EVERYONE - enjoys by having the cheapest and most abundant food in the world.  This has been a very specific, enumerated goal of government policy since WWII.  And it has worked.

And has always - as in always - been based on cheap labor allowed in from south of the border.  Also, since WWII.

Step through the comparisons - being sure to compare US to Germany, England, etc rather than India.  Just to keep a little validity...

http://www.walletpop.com/specials/food-price-comparison-around-the-world/

So, how much does food cost us as a percentage of disposable income?  Less and less every year.  So without the illegals to keep it down, you ALL would be much worse off in ways much greater than all the free education, medical, or whatever the social costs are today.  Of course, that could change...if we got rid of all the illegals.  Standard of living would go down pretty much across the board, except of course for the top 1% - they will always get what's due them.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/CPIFoodandExpenditures/Data/table7.htm

[dbacks fan]

At least as far as SS/MC, they're paying into a pot they'll never see a dime from.

Wait until you go tto the ER and are told that can't take you because they are swamped. Illegals use the ER like a doctors office and then never pay the bill, we do. By the way, let me give your SSN to 20 illegals and see how long it takes to to explain your way out of it.

[we vs us]

Wait until you go tto the ER and are told that can't take you because they are swamped. Illegals use the ER like a doctors office and then never pay the bill, we do.

So do the poor and the uninsured.  It ain't just illegal immigrants.

[nathanm]

Wait until you go tto the ER and are told that can't take you because they are swamped. Illegals use the ER like a doctors office and then never pay the bill, we do. By the way, let me give your SSN to 20 illegals and see how long it takes to to explain your way out of it.

I was going to write what wevus did, but he already wrote it, so I'll just add my +1 to that part.

And your thing about the SSN? How many times to I have to acknowledge that when they happen upon an existing SSN it causes serious problems for the owner of that particular number?

God forbid that you or anyone else see it is our own policies that drive that result, though. As in, we can change the way we handle illegal immigrants and make that a complete non-issue. That would probably be seen as criminal coddling, though. We can't have that. There is an old saying that invokes a nose, a face, and spite. I think it applies here.

[Conan71]

I was going to write what wevus did, but he already wrote it, so I'll just add my +1 to that part.

And your thing about the SSN? How many times to I have to acknowledge that when they happen upon an existing SSN it causes serious problems for the owner of that particular number?

God forbid that you or anyone else see it is our own policies that drive that result, though. As in, we can change the way we handle illegal immigrants and make that a complete non-issue. That would probably be seen as criminal coddling, though. We can't have that. There is an old saying that invokes a nose, a face, and spite. I think it applies here.

We can de-criminalize anything we like, Nathan.  There's usually a good reason something is deemed criminal in the first place.  Our immigration laws exist, not out of spite, bigotry, or hatred but to protect existing U.S. citizens and the assets of the United States Government.  It was designed to ensure orderly immigration so as not to overwhelm our social systems, over-burden our infrastructures, and peel jobs away from existing Americans as refugees show up willing to work for less wages.  They also exist to protect the immigrants from exploitation by unscrupulous coyotes and being kept in virtual slavery by unscrupulous employers here in the states.

[Conan71]

So do the poor and the uninsured.  It ain't just illegal immigrants.

Nice deflection, it was simply refuting the asinine point that illegal immigrants never see a penny of their SSI and Medicare deductions paid as benefits.

[we vs us]

Nice deflection, it was simply refuting the asinine point that illegal immigrants never see a penny of their SSI and Medicare deductions paid as benefits.

No deflection at all, only meant to point out that it isn't some horrific aberration visited on us by illegal immigrants.  We tolerate that scheme in all parts of our healthcare system, and for Americans and non-Americans alike, and so it isn't a particularly good argument against illegal immigration.

[Conan71]

No deflection at all, only meant to point out that it isn't some horrific aberration visited on us by illegal immigrants.  We tolerate that scheme in all parts of our healthcare system, and for Americans and non-Americans alike, and so it isn't a particularly good argument against illegal immigration.

No one even started to hint illegal immigrants were the sole problem of emergency room log-jams, but it is a significant contributing factor.