State Question 744

[nathanm]

The most alarming thing is that the "Cost" associated with primary/secondary education has increased reliably every year, but the quality has not.  I think I would rather see legislation that attaches funding to standards.  Just like in the private sector, capital should be related to performance.  To simply continue to throw money at a problem without any associated measurement of success is the same thing we've been doing for years, and will produce the same result.

Of course the cost has increased. Buildings get older and require more maintenance, new ones have to be built, and inflation makes everything more expensive. Is there anything in your life, other than electronics, that has decreased in cost as time goes on?

I agree that it's flawed and I likely will vote against the amendment, but that's because I have an aversion to enshrining spending in the state Constitution, as I mentioned previously.

Also note that the audit idea that's kicking around, while a good one, will further increase the cost since we'll have to pay for that also.

[Conan71]

I liked some of the causal relationships RM made in his post.  Think about it: we have amongst the highest per capita prison populations but some of the lowest education spending in the country- possible relationship?  But, I feel as a nation we are getting "money lazy".  For some reason the logic has become that money will fix every single problem and it's just not so.  Invent another spending bill and performance and morale will improve.  Life doesn't work that way.

I still maintain the biggest part of this problem has less to do about money that isn't getting spent in the education system, it's about a pattern of apathy in our state toward education which leads to poor outcomes and a pattern of inefficiency which happens when the public sector gets bloated.  You can throw money at it until the world looks level, but if the community and families aren't behind the students, there's simply never going to be real improvement in our results.

I can see some logic for wanting a bill like this, but until we can identify ways to make education more efficient by doing some unpopular things like merging more rural school districts and coming up with a size standard over a given square mile area to better serve communities, we don't need to throw more money at it.  Figure out which layers of administration are unnecessary, end programs which don't contribute to the overall educational experience if there are any (I believe the arts and athletics are an important part of the scholastic experience).  Find ways to improve transportation and better manage energy demand on schools (i.e. gas & electric).  Attach performance standards to teachers and quit protecting the bad ones with tenure so we can afford the best and brightest teachers who care about their job.  In addition, communities can step up with more volunteerism to help maintain schools and give time in helping teachers as volunteer aides and in tutoring/mentoring programs.

Also the nature of: "Let's use the standards of our neighbors to set our own" seems a bit arbitrary to me, especially when we don't have the funding to begin with.  We have got to figure out ways to cut spending on failed and/or inefficient programs and initiatives before we invent new ways to blow more money.  It's hard work and it's painful in some cases, but we can't keep on coming up with unsustainable government spending programs.

[Conan71]

Of course the cost has increased. Buildings get older and require more maintenance, new ones have to be built, and inflation makes everything more expensive. Is there anything in your life, other than electronics, that has decreased in cost as time goes on?

I agree that it's flawed and I likely will vote against the amendment, but that's because I have an aversion to enshrining spending in the state Constitution, as I mentioned previously.

Also note that the audit idea that's kicking around, while a good one, will further increase the cost since we'll have to pay for that also.

The audit doesn't necessarily have to cost more.  There's more than enough administrators both in the state education department and in the various school districts who could perform this function, especially if it were mandated by law.  I do realize you are going to have superintendents who want to protect their own little fiefdom and might skew results.  It's very possible to do this, it's simply making people do the job they were hired to do in the first place.

/edit to add: Public servants, elected or hired have a certain fiduciary responsiblity to those they serve: the tax payer.  Some have a bigger responsibility than others, but they all deal with publicly-owned assets.  It's unfortunate so many of them don't understand that.

[guido911]

You hide behind a fake name...people do know who I am. It is not that I think I am all that influential, but I do get yelled at for my comments on TulsaNow.

The sweating and shaking you have been feeling...it is a new feeling? Probably your conscience...

I hide behind a fake name, really recyclemichael? As for getting yelled at a TNF, that was not what you posted. You were worried about how taking your position would be received by "many" in the "community". Time to dial back the "I am a very important person" switch.  

[Cats Cats Cats]

I hide behind a fake name, really recyclemichael? As for getting yelled at a TNF, that was not what you posted. You were worried about how taking your position would be received by "many" in the "community". Time to dial back the "I am a very important person" switch.  

I knew who recyclemichael was when I was when I was 15 and never even met the guy.  So yes, that passes for his name. 

[Red Arrow]

We've been through the stage name thing before.  RM may have allowed his real name to be introduced but there are few who don't know his real name.

[custosnox]

I knew who recyclemichael was when I was when I was 15 and never even met the guy.  So yes, that passes for his name. 

I think I've even seen write ups with that as his name. 

[Cats Cats Cats]

Last names are a modifier in addition to a first name to be able to differentiate people who may have the same first name.  Michael is obviously from the Scottish clan Recycle.  That way you don't get confused with ReduceMichael and ReuseMichael which were Irish clans.

[nathanm]

The audit doesn't necessarily have to cost more.  There's more than enough administrators both in the state education department and in the various school districts who could perform this function, especially if it were mandated by law.  I do realize you are going to have superintendents who want to protect their own little fiefdom and might skew results.

An audit is pretty much worthless unless it's conducted by an independent organization. I'm of two minds on the independent audit requirement at the federal level: On the one hand, it gets a third party in there to look at the books and see that everything is being accounted for properly. On the other hand, it usually ends up being make work for the auditor, since opinions rarely get issued.

Also, what about RelaxMichael?

[Cats Cats Cats]

I really hate this, we are going to get more money but no specifics of how it will be used.  We need specifics on laws like this. At least that 95% is going to be passed to individual schools and not burned at some sort of Oklahoma DOE bon fire or something.

[Cats Cats Cats]

An audit is pretty much worthless unless it's conducted by an independent organization.

Just make sure they didn't go to public school.  We will be fine

[Conan71]

An audit is pretty much worthless unless it's conducted by an independent organization. I'm of two minds on the independent audit requirement at the federal level: On the one hand, it gets a third party in there to look at the books and see that everything is being accounted for properly. On the other hand, it usually ends up being make work for the auditor, since opinions rarely get issued.

Also, what about RelaxMichael?

I get your point, but we don't even demand much in the way of accountability out of administrators, bureaucrats, and even the people leaning on shovels.  Demand more accountability and require proven results or they go off the gov't teat.  On the issue of education, there's simple ways to measure performance- standardized test scores, graduation rates, GPA's, student population, teachers and administrators on payroll, and line-item budgets.

[RecycleMichael]

I don't want to make this thread about me because then guido will get all jealous again...

Back on the topic...

I realize that this bill puts our funding of one area of state government into the hands of the legislatures of other states. I cringe that non-Oklahomans could set our priorities on funding. I also feel there is a lot of waste in education funding, especially having hundreds of different school districts in the state.

My sister is a school principal in Florida and they have one district per county. We have Skiatook, Owasso, Sand Springs, Jenks, Bixby, Tulsa, Broken Arrow and Union. By the way, she used to teach in Oklahoma and left when she found out she could make 30% more in Florida.

I just want better schools and I want the state to fund them. I am tired of building highways to nowhere, prisons in every little town with an influential politician, and monuments to state agencies on Lincoln Boulevard in Oklahoma City.

[custosnox]

I don't want to make this thread about me because then guido will get all jealous again...

Back on the topic...

I realize that this bill puts our funding of one area of state government into the hands of the legislatures of other states. I cringe that non-Oklahomans could set our priorities on funding. I also feel there is a lot of waste in education funding, especially having hundreds of different school districts in the state.

My sister is a school principal in Florida and they have one district per county. We have Skiatook, Owasso, Sand Springs, Jenks, Bixby, Tulsa, Broken Arrow and Union. By the way, she used to teach in Oklahoma and left when she found out she could make 30% more in Florida.

I just want better schools and I want the state to fund them. I am tired of building highways to nowhere, prisons in every little town with an influential politician, and monuments to state agencies on Lincoln Boulevard in Oklahoma City.

Doesn't the bill have a "or more" clause in it?  I know, I really need to take the time to read it.  But if it does, than that would be more along the lines of the surrounding states setting the bar, not setting the amount.  Granted, with the way Oklahoma is, they will rest right on that bar, but hey, at least the bar will be higher.

[Conan71]

I am tired of building highways to nowhere, prisons in every little town with an influential politician, and monuments to state agencies on Lincoln Boulevard in Oklahoma City.

Honestly folks, I did not hi-jack RM's account this morning.