State Question 744

[guido911]

I respect your opinion despite your lack of respect for anyone else's.

Oh whatever RM. You are as big as a lefty bomb thrower as anyone else like you out there. Get over yourself...

[Conan71]

I am not freaking out. I am passionately writing about something I fell strongly about.

You have your personal issues, I have mine.

I respect your opinion despite your lack of respect for anyone else's.

You two have issues

[Hoss]

Oh whatever RM. You are as big as a lefty bomb thrower as anyone else like you out there. Get over yourself...

You cannot be serious.  Talk about pot and kettle.  Jeez.

[Red Arrow]

You cannot be serious.  Talk about pot and kettle.  Jeez.

Guido a lefty bomb thrower?  I don't think so.

[RecycleMichael]

I know how you must feel. I have been up for days, sweating and shaking, waiting for you, the all powerful and influential RM, to weigh in. /sarc

This is how it started on page one of this thread. Guido tries to belittle posters. He is a bully on this playground.

I will try to not comment on anything he says.

[nathanm]

Both articles cite California's prison system.  I have not found yet whether DOC guards are union or not.  If anything, I might lend credence to a decentralization of the system due to pet projects by legislators to get prisons built to help bring employment to struggling areas or to help the construction lobby.

Our priorities are interesting.  During the DA elections, people gripe about how Tim Harris is an impotent prosecutor because there's a revolving door of criminals in and out of the DL Moss and the DOC.  Then there's the other side of the coin when it comes to prisons eating up too much money which could go to education: we incarcerate far too many people.  It's also funny that communities don't want prisons on their front lawn, but they don't seem to mind the jobs they bring.

We can't have it both ways. Either we have less DOC funding and higher repeat crime rates, or vice versa (I'm not pointing a finger at you, this is simply a logical conversation to bring this up in).

There's a lot of construction money being spent on school districts.  Perhaps we need to quit funding PAC's, expensive energy overhaul programs, stadium improvements, etc and fund teachers instead.

Here's the thing: Better educated people are less likely to turn to crime. Part of the reason we spend so much on prisons is that we refuse to spend enough on schools. Also, I don't really care if some guy gets rearrested for smoking pot after he gets released from jail after being arrested for smoking pot. Sure, it breeds contempt for the criminal justice system, but to be honest, as it presently is here in Oklahoma, it deserves contempt. Violent criminals need to be locked up, with rare exception. Nonviolent criminals probably don't.

Also, with the never ending creep of misdemeanors being turned into felonies, it makes it difficult to impossible for petty offenders to get their lives back on track.

Regarding school capital spending, at least in the case of new heating/cooling and other energy efficiency upgrades, that work helps, over the long term, to free up money for operating expenses, like teacher salaries. To some degree our schools and our roads are in similar situations. We've been dumping a relatively large amount of money into our roads the last couple of years and it's hardly made a dent due to the decades of deferred maintenance. So it goes with the schools. Dumping money on them won't change anything this year or next, but over the longer term it will put them in a better position to educate more of Oklahoma's children.

The key to both of these issues is eliminating poverty. Education is one of the best ways to do that. With education, the parents who many of you look down on for being uninvolved will be able to get better jobs and work few enough hours to support their family that they can get involved in their child's education. It's hard to do that after 14-16 hours a day on the job(s).

[guido911]

Guido a lefty bomb thrower?  I don't think so.

lol

[TheArtist]

  I will be voting No on this state question as well.  You all know that I am no arch conservative.  I want a better education system, and am willing to pay more for it, but frankly I am baffled and amazed that we are even being asked to vote on this, imo, absurd State Question.

   You can't just ask for more money and not give me some specifics as to what your going to do with it.  I need to know or have some reasonable feeling that what is going to happen with the money will make an effective, cost effective, best possible, positive, accountable, difference. If they can't tell me those things as a matter of course,,, it makes me worry that perhaps they don't have a plan for what they will be doing with the money?  Its for our schools?  Thats rather vague folks.  Helloooooo?   

  The incompetency of this state question is staggering and does not instill ANY confidence that they have what it takes to then be competent with any increase in funding.  I am just stunned and floored by this whole thing.  And frankly I am saddened and disheartened since this shows just how far things will have to evolve before we can do what needs to be done for our schools.

[Hoss]

Guido a lefty bomb thrower?  I don't think so.

Wow.  How about lefty vs righty?  You guys amaze me sometimes.  Something about forest and trees now applies.

[Conan71]

Here's the thing: Better educated people are less likely to turn to crime. Part of the reason we spend so much on prisons is that we refuse to spend enough on schools. Also, I don't really care if some guy gets rearrested for smoking pot after he gets released from jail after being arrested for smoking pot. Sure, it breeds contempt for the criminal justice system, but to be honest, as it presently is here in Oklahoma, it deserves contempt. Violent criminals need to be locked up, with rare exception. Nonviolent criminals probably don't.

Also, with the never ending creep of misdemeanors being turned into felonies, it makes it difficult to impossible for petty offenders to get their lives back on track.

Regarding school capital spending, at least in the case of new heating/cooling and other energy efficiency upgrades, that work helps, over the long term, to free up money for operating expenses, like teacher salaries. To some degree our schools and our roads are in similar situations. We've been dumping a relatively large amount of money into our roads the last couple of years and it's hardly made a dent due to the decades of deferred maintenance. So it goes with the schools. Dumping money on them won't change anything this year or next, but over the longer term it will put them in a better position to educate more of Oklahoma's children.

The key to both of these issues is eliminating poverty. Education is one of the best ways to do that. With education, the parents who many of you look down on for being uninvolved will be able to get better jobs and work few enough hours to support their family that they can get involved in their child's education. It's hard to do that after 14-16 hours a day on the job(s).

I believe everyone agrees that better educated people are less prone to crime, except for the "banksters" and Shrub's buddies at Enron, of course.  

There's a misconception on energy efficiency programs- the payback can often be as long as ten years.  The total upgrade program Honeywell, JCI, Trane, Carrier, etc. market are based on 10 year paybacks.  Those programs involve lighting, building energy management systems, and HVAC equipment.  That's all great if the equipment doesn't require a heavy over-haul or replacement in 10 years and if it's still operating as efficiently as it was originally designed for and it's all been maintained properly.  Those are all scenarios that seldom play out as presented.  If natural gas were to remain at $8 to $10 per dekatherm, it's easy to show great paybacks, when it's staying in the $4.00 range, there's not much payback to be had, as electric rates will also trend with NG to an extent.

These companies regularly make changes to their BAS software and sensors.  There's a lot of obsolescence in these systems in a 10 year span.  As parts fail, you have to upgrade to the new platform.  These companies don't stay in business by selling one-off systems, they stay in business by creating customers for life.  I'm also quite well aware that school systems mostly only employ maintenance workers who have basic knowledge of mechanical systems, and the systems seldom get the regular PM's as recommended because those departments seem to be chronically under-staffed due to budget constraints.
Certainly there are energy savings to be had, but they are not as great as you think when you start looking at what the costs are to attain and maintain them.

Also, remember each principal and administrator in a school system has their own little fiefdom.  One is never willing to turn their budget money loose to another department if they don't need it.  Many school systems have "use it or lose it" budgeting.  If a department doesn't spend all their money one year, they lose what they don't spend.  I have literally seen stacks of flourescent tubes and 55 gallon drums of floor wax in school warehouses which won't be consumed in five years because a department head did an end of year spending spree with left-over funds instead of simply allowing those funds to go back to the general fund for re-distribution to where they might be needed.  Lower operating costs finding their way into hiring more teachers is actually a very hard trick.

I've worked with a lot of school districts over the last 16 years and seen a whole lot of waste and wasteful habits.  Something many citizens are not aware of is "use it or lose it" budgeting.  There's a lot of waste we pay for as a reult of that in so many different government agencies.

Conservatives and Liberals are always going to be at an impasse when it comes to how to improve education.  Liberals seem to think throwing money at a problem makes it better and conservatives assume many problems can be changed by altering people's behavior and emphasizing personal responsibility.  

I don't look down upon someone who is working two jobs, 16 hours a day.  There are plenty of kids having successful educational experiences in two income households or even where there's only one parent working two jobs.  Those children are getting a better view of work ethic and having that instilled in themselves.  The problem parents, for the most part, are the ones who are barely working one job, or none completely by choice or mired in drug and alcohol addiction.

/edit: And along the lines of what The Artist added: I heard ads from both sides on TV this morning over breakfast.  I'm amazed at the money being spent on this issue.  It's all about special interests fighting over YOUR tax dollars.  I too am entirely disturbed by making a constitutional amendment without so much as specific performance goals.  This was not too dissimilar to why I loathed the river tax plan.  They basically said: "Give us the money and we will know what to do with it.  Details are unimportant, just give us the money.  Trust us."

[Townsend]

 I will be voting No on this state question as well.  You all know that I am no arch conservative.  I want a better education system, and am willing to pay more for it, but frankly I am baffled and amazed that we are even being asked to vote on this, imo, absurd State Question.

   You can't just ask for more money and not give me some specifics as to what your going to do with it.  I need to know or have some reasonable feeling that what is going to happen with the money will make an effective, cost effective, best possible, positive, accountable, difference. If they can't tell me those things as a matter of course,,, it makes me worry that perhaps they don't have a plan for what they will be doing with the money?  Its for our schools?  Thats rather vague folks.  Helloooooo?   

  The incompetency of this state question is staggering and does not instill ANY confidence that they have what it takes to then be competent with any increase in funding.  I am just stunned and floored by this whole thing.  And frankly I am saddened and disheartened since this shows just how far things will have to evolve before we can do what needs to be done for our schools.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Artist on this one.  It blows my mind they're not showing more information than "we'll get the money from other programs" to justify this.  I want more money for education but this is like the islands vote.  There's little to no information that I've seen to justify this.

I've seen new commercials since yesterday to justify the cost by stating something about "taking money from the corrupt and overpaid programs" or something like that.  I have a hard time believing that.

Why haven't the backers been more forthcoming with what it'll do or why it benefits us?  They need to do a better job selling it.

[Conan71]

They are even pimping the little moppets in the "no" ads now.

[sgrizzle]

Why even run a "No on 744" campaign? Just tell everyone "Vote Yes on 754"

Or even better "Vote Yes on 744 and 754"

[swake]

I am really torn on this issue. For one, I do think that education at all levels is the most important thing that the state does. And I do think that the state's spending is all out of whack with what the states priorities are, or what they should be. I also don't trust that angry band of idiots we call a legislature to do anything more meaningful than pass crap like state questions banning Sharia law and English only.

That does not mean that there are not other important things that the state does, and that's the problem. The state does wildly overspend on some things, like thousands of pointless jobs in Oklahoma City on Lincoln Drive, all these tiny directional college campuses, dozens of unneeded independent school districts and the seeming need to lockup people like we are part of Soviet Russia. I have this great impression that OTA and ODOT are these back holes for money designed to make certain companies rich instead of in the business of building roads. But there are lots of other places in the state the state does important work, in fact places where more money and more personnel is needed, not less.

I just don't know, I like the idea of taking the funding of education out of the hands of a legislature that plainly has proven they really don't care about education. But this doesn't direct the money anywhere and doesn't address systematic problems in education like too many school districts. And it says nothing about which services would be cut to pay for this. My guess is that the staffing levels at the capitol complex would take a budget hit long after budget items like health care or higher education.

This  bill only guarantees that we spend what the other states spent THREE YEARS AGO, and how sad is it that we don't even come close to spending what lowly states like Texas, Missouri, Arkansas and New Mexico spent three years ago. But, getting to that meager level could really hurt other  important programs.

But my son has 28 kids in his class. 28th 4th grade kids in one class. That's way too many.

I'm leaning yes, but I'm not convinced, that this is an issue really makes me want to reassess my living in Oklahoma.

[Conan71]

Why is 28 kids too many if all the children are getting good grades?  What would be a more agreeable number and how do we determine that number? 

I'd posted earlier that's between the average classroom size I was used to between my time at TPS and Jenks and found I could get proper attention from the teachers when it was needed and that students weren't suffering.

We all want a Cadillac when it comes to government services, but we only want to pay a Chevrolet price for it and hope someone else will subsidize the cost of it.  I hope this is an awakening for those on this board who aren't as concerned about bloated, inefficient government.  We have got to get government sprawl under control.  The only way I know how is to toss out special interests who are making a ton off government and friendly legislation.  If you look on the registered list of lobbyists in the state of Oklahoma, it's a large list.  I'm curious why companies like AT&T have 18 registered lobbyists?  Why would the Kaiser Family Foundation need a lobbyist?

https://www.ok.gov/ethics/lobbyist/public_index.php