Downtown Post Office (Paige Belcher Bldg)

[PonderInc]

The Tulsa Chamber appears to be lobbying for the demolition of the downtown post office/federal building (Page Belcher Bldg) with hopes of getting a "convention sized hotel" in its place.  There is some discussion about the cost of upgrading the current building to meet federal standards for security, versus tearing it down.  I believe the Chamber has been working with senator inhofe on this deal, to lobby for demo and relocation.

I know that the building qualifies for inclusion on the National Register.  Even though it's not one of my favorite buildings, I typically stand on the side of preservation and repurposing over demo.  (Too many folks are too quick to conveniently determine that something is "functionally obsolete" when what they really mean is that they are short-sighted and they prefer surface parking lots to historic architecture.  On the other hand, this is no Skelly Building.)

What do y'all think?  Does Tulsa really need a "convention sized hotel?"  With all the casinos and multiple downtown hotels...wouldn't that just mean that we'd be drowning in empty hotel rooms?  Or is that what it takes to draw something bigger than a Pig Farmers of America convention to Tulsa?

[Conan71]

The building is bufugly and I would assume it's interior layout makes it a poor candidate for re-purposing.

[SXSW]

I'd rather see a new federal building constructed downtown (maybe on the BOK lot at 2nd & Denver?) and the Page Belcher building demolished.  Then build a park/plaza in its place.  Concentrate new development around it.  Someday when they expand the convention center the parking garage could be moved and the 'front door' could open up to this plaza with a better connection to the BOK Center and Aloft hotel.  If another hotel is really needed after the Aloft and Hyatt Place are completed, it can go on the surface lot at 4th & Denver.  

[Townsend]

I was under the impression that our Federal building was still well over a decade away from scheduled replacement.

If so, I think a crew with a couple of power washers could do a world of good.

[TheArtist]

I think the Page Belcher Bldg adds a unique, historic style (though still underappreciated )to the architectural landscape of our downtown.  I have started seeing some of the chicest new neighborhoods and shopping/office areas in Europe be ones where they have taken streets that have buildings of this style and era and refurbished them.  I know we are a little slow on the uptake here and its a style that we dont quite appreciate as much as we inevitably will in the future,,, but lets please not be so short sighted.  Why do we not pay attention to our very own history.  We tear stuff down of a certain style thinking its terribly ugly, then a generation later bemoan its loss and wish we could go back in time and kill those who were so stupid as to tear the things down lol.  What were they thinking!? What a treasure that would have been!

 They didn't build this thing and think it looked ugly when they did.  They thought it looked great.  This whole area was very modern  and cutting edge.  We are so close to this style being appreciated again, even here in the backwaters of Tulsa lol.  I wish I had the time this morning to show you some of the cutting edge stuff that designers and architects are coming out with in other parts of the world that very much pay homage to this style.  If they were to take away the fencing they have around part of this building and put in ground floor retail, refurbish the area, the plaza and old City Hall, etc (I think we are lucky to have this building smack dab in with a "collection" of buildings from the same era. )... this building will find its place again and be very much appreciated.  The facade would be difficult and expensive to replicate, and looks to be in good shape to me.  Purists wouldn't like it but at worst much of the inside could be gutted and have the central core opened up to let in more light.  It could even be a pedestal for something taller and more contemporary but that reflects the old design.  

I think its a beautiful building with SO much potential to look utterly fantastic and be very much appreciated by more and more people as time goes by.  I would hate to see us lose it.  

[SXSW]

Mid-century style or not, it's still a hulking piece of ugly concrete.  Anytime I have taken people from out of town down to the BOK Center they comment on why that building has not been torn down and how it really drags that area down.  Especially with it being in the natural pathway between the convention center and BOK Center, and eventually between the Aloft hotel and BOK Center.  The interior is obsolete and would require tens of millions of dollars to modernize.  If the federal govt. is going to pour money into a federal building, why not have them build something new?  Especially if it takes up a surface lot somewhere in downtown.  Hopefully we can get on the GSA's Design Excellence list and have something really ground-breaking designed for Tulsa's new federal building. 

Let me be clear, I'm all for preservation and want to see the Civic Center left intact and restored.  But the Page Belcher is not a building worth saving.  Same for the Abundant Life building at 18th & Boulder.  Just because they are from that era doesn't mean they should be preserved...

[Dana431]

Just because they are from that era doesn't mean they should be preserved...

+1

[Conan71]

Let me be clear, I'm all for preservation and want to see the Civic Center left intact and restored.  But the Page Belcher is not a building worth saving.  Same for the Abundant Life building at 18th & Boulder.  Just because they are from that era doesn't mean they should be preserved...

There's probably no bigger afficinado of MCM architecture on here than myself (okay, there are some infrequent posters on TNF who live in Lortondale as well and share my passion) and I think this was mid-century done wrong.  I had the same argument about old City Hall with Hometown a few years back.  To me, the PBFB is a cold, intimidating, Politiburo-style fortress.  It looks like a jail to me.  It fit that part of downtown in 1967 when it was completed, but with the change in the cityscape around it, it's horribly out of place now.

[swake]

There's probably no bigger afficinado of MCM architecture on here than myself (okay, there are some infrequent posters on TNF who live in Lortondale as well and share my passion) and I think this was mid-century done wrong.  I had the same argument about old City Hall with Hometown a few years back.  To me, the PBFB is a cold, intimidating, Politiburo-style fortress.  It looks like a jail to me.  It fit that part of downtown in 1967 when it was completed, but with the change in the cityscape around it, it's horribly out of place now.

It's just an awful building and was the day it opened. Take it down.

[stageidea]

A lot of funding was recently put into restoring a good part of the interior for the Federal Judge/Marshals Office.  I can't imagine that they would want to now tear it down. 

[SXSW]

A lot of funding was recently put into restoring a good part of the interior for the Federal Judge/Marshals Office.  I can't imagine that they would want to now tear it down.  

Those are in Page Belcher and not the Federal Courthouse on Boulder?  The courthouse is a beautiful building, btw.

[DTowner]

A lot of funding was recently put into restoring a good part of the interior for the Federal Judge/Marshals Office.  I can't imagine that they would want to now tear it down. 

Then you don't have much experience with the federal government.

Even if this building were stylistically/architecturally worth saving, I suspect it would be cost prohibitive to retrofit it for a new use other than a postal processing center (which it doesn't do any more) and court house.  That sad thing is, while the judges' chambers (I hear) and the court rooms are nice (after spending a lot of money), it is still a very user unfriendly building.

[stageidea]

Sadly, I have too much experience with the federal government and should not of been surprised of the move.  I did some design work on the remodel so I think I was more upset that they where now going to tear it down.  I can attest that the existing building is certainly under utilized and it is currently unfriendly due it's current design.  But it is big open space so I think someone creative could do something interesting with it possibly.

[nathanm]

It fit that part of downtown in 1967 when it was completed, but with the change in the cityscape around it, it's horribly out of place now.

Heh, I like the Brutalist influence. I wouldn't want a whole city looking like the federal building, but I think it makes a nice one off. It's a great contrast with the other styles surrounding it.

It does need to be spruced up a bit, though.

[we vs us]

The Tulsa Chamber appears to be lobbying for the demolition of the downtown post office/federal building (Page Belcher Bldg) with hopes of getting a "convention sized hotel" in its place.  There is some discussion about the cost of upgrading the current building to meet federal standards for security, versus tearing it down.  I believe the Chamber has been working with senator inhofe on this deal, to lobby for demo and relocation.

I know that the building qualifies for inclusion on the National Register.  Even though it's not one of my favorite buildings, I typically stand on the side of preservation and repurposing over demo.  (Too many folks are too quick to conveniently determine that something is "functionally obsolete" when what they really mean is that they are short-sighted and they prefer surface parking lots to historic architecture.  On the other hand, this is no Skelly Building.)

What do y'all think?  Does Tulsa really need a "convention sized hotel?"  With all the casinos and multiple downtown hotels...wouldn't that just mean that we'd be drowning in empty hotel rooms?  Or is that what it takes to draw something bigger than a Pig Farmers of America convention to Tulsa?

This is verrrry interesting.  I'd be fascinated to hear the who/when/what regarding this, Ponder, if you can share.  I participated on the Tourism and Hospitality subcommittee of the Chamber's One Voice effort, and during the brainstorming this was one of the big ideas that didn't make it onto our priority list but seemed to stir up a lot of interest among certain downtown boosters.  I've been a big champion of a convention hotel idea (I nattered on about it on a thread a couple months ago) and talked about it pretty incessantly at the subcommittee meetings. In our discussions, the idea that Page Belcher is 1) mostly obsolete and 2) sitting on prime real estate came up a lot.  The idea was that PB was a missing piece of sorts of a slowly forming hotel or entertainment "corridor," starting with the Doubletree and the new Convention Center, continuing now with the new City Hall conversion by Brickhugger, and bookended finally by the BOK Center.  Putting a 500 room (or 600 or whatever) convention hotel on the PB pad would create an excellent corridor that could be linked by shuttles, pedestrian walkways/thoroughfares/jitneys/whathaveyous and that could above all help solidify and centralize the hospitality environment downtown.  

As I'm sure I've said in the past on here, one of DT's real problems from a major convention perspective is its diffusion.  We have rooms scattered all over the place in relation to the Convention Center (to contrast: I'm writing this from downtown Louisville, where I'm attending a conference; there is a major Marriott, a Hyatt, and the Galt House totalling over 2300 rooms, all within two blocks of the convention center; this doesn't count my hotel -- the Courtyard -- or other limited service options, all also within three to four blocks). Convenience and proximity are key, and right now there's not a lot of that for large groups.  It's getting better but it ain't fantastic yet.  

And the conference I'm at right now is for religious meeting planners from around the country.  This is just one type of planner; there are associations, sports, social groups . . . you name it, there're people out there who plan the meetings.  I can't tell you the number of groups that won't look at Tulsa because of the number of hotel rooms we DON'T have.  This is millions of dollars in revenue that we're turning down, and I saw it happen several times TODAY.

EDIT:  Okay, so it wasn't millions of dollars per event, but each event could have up to several hundred thousand $$'s worth of impact when all is said and done, so we're talking millions over several years.  But I was still turned down today several times because of the number of hotel rooms we're offering.