Now That SQ 744 Has Tanked, What To Do About Common Education

[Conan71]

The state will face some serious budget shortfalls this year.  Instead of cutting funding to education why not consolidate the school districts?  This is the time for that to be done.  The Republicans have said they want job creation and economic development to be their many priorities.  Education is a big part of that. 

I don't want to cut funding.  I want to cut wasteful spending.

[Townsend]

I don't want to cut funding.  I want to cut wasteful spending.

If Broken Arrow schools over the past couple of years is any example, wasteful spending is subjective.

[sgrizzle]

If Broken Arrow schools over the past couple of years is any example, wasteful spending is subjective.

How much did they get charged to torch a mini-storage?

[Conan71]

If Broken Arrow schools over the past couple of years is any example, wasteful spending is subjective.

How about a 9500 square foot indoor baseball practice facility for Cimmaron Public Schools out in western Oklahoma or middle school weight rooms?  That makes great sense.

[Townsend]

How about a 9500 square foot indoor baseball practice facility for Cimmaron Public Schools out in western Oklahoma or middle school weight rooms?  That makes great sense.

My point is the people receiving the money do not think the spending is wasteful. (HVAC companies et al)  So they'll push back anytime someone says it is.

The students don't normally push back so the story will be "We don't have the money for a music/art department."

[patric]

How much did they get charged to torch a mini-storage?

Good example.  Imagine where this would have gone if someone had died in that fire.

[Red Arrow]

Really?

Maybe I just shop in the wrong WalMart, Lowes, etc.  Maybe I should put earplugs in my ears to avoid overhearing conversations.

[swake]

Guess what I just got in the mail, the annual report for Jenks Public Schools.

Let's look at the numbers.

Jenks has 10,165 students and had a total annual operating budget of $63,947,342 for 2009-2010.

Per pupil spending $6,291

Jenks has 1,383 employees of which 730 are "certified" personel. From another source I found that 528 are teachers which means that 202 are Principals, Councilors, Therapists, Speech Pathologists, Curriculum experts etc. You can argue that schools shouldn't be in the business of therapy, speech pathology and the like, but the real world fact is that many kids with a lot problems that in the past weren't in schools have now been mainstreamed and the schools have to provide services to them. It's a huge part of the increase of the cost of schools over the last couple of decades.

Jenks also has another 201 employees who are teaching assistants/paraprofessionals. These people help with the large class sizes in the elementary grades and most of all with those handicapped kids. Some are assigned one aide to one handicapped kid.

That's 931 people out of 1,383 who are directly involved with teaching (and caring for) kids.

Who are the rest of the employees?
Well, 88 of them are daycare/before and after school care people. These salaries are largely self funding by fees to the parents that use the services so they don't really count. Then there's 83 people in transportation. Part time bus drivers aren't really a big impact to the budget. 89 cafeteria workers, again, to an extent self funding and they are often just part time anyway. That's now 1,192 employees out of 1,383 that are directly involved with kids. That leaves 191 "support" people. 8 cops, 12 people in IT, 14 print shop and warehouse people, 70 maintenance/custodians and finally 89 clerical/business office people. That is not a large support staff. Where would you cut there? That's 191 people to support 1,200 employees that work with over 10,000 kids.

Let's look at the budget. $63,947,342. Seems like a lot but $50,494,412 is salaries. Another $7,769,740 is benefits. 91.1% of the budget is Salary and Benefits. $978,189 of the remaining $5,683.190 is to outsourced services. Only 7.4% of the budget isn't employee related.

Where do you "reform" this, what cuts do you make to "put more money in the classroom"?

It's a fallacy. Certainly there is waste, any system that involves people is going to have waste, but there is no golden pot at the end of the budget rainbow that's going to fix schools without a lot more money.

You want better schools? It's really simple.

1.   Pay teachers more to encourage more and better qualified people to become teachers. The starting salary for a teacher in Oklahoma is $29,174. That's with a  degree, and post grad certification program and an internship. Dish Network has a huge sign on 71st where they will start anyone who can fog a mirror at $11.50 an hour. That's $23,920 to start. Average pay for a teacher is $38,772. It's damn hard to raise a family on just under 39k, even in low cost Oklahoma. Anyone with talent and smarts coming out of college, without a spouse making real money, is going to be hard pressed to choose to struggle through life because they wanted to teach. There are a lot of bad teachers, even in ideal teaching world  Jenks. This is why.

2.   Extend the school year. Again, that will drive more cost. Kids forget a lot over a 3 month summer. I've had teachers tell me that the first 6-8 weeks of the school year is a review time to get back what was forgotten over the summer.

3.   Class sizes. More individualized attention  leads to better learning, especially among kids that that come from less than ideal environments. We can say that learning starts in the home, and that is very true. But can we afford to create a permanent and angry underclass of people that schools fail because they come from bad parents. The kids of bad parents are only going to become the next generation of bad parents. The cost here is astronomical in welfare, criminal justice, and lost potential productivity alone. We have to work to break that cycle of poverty and it starts with schools, not welfare.

All three solutions will work, and all cost money. Certainly get rid of all these ridiculous tiny school districts. Root out administrators that do nothing. But at the end of the day the amounts of money you find there will not really address the real needs in the classroom.

[Townsend]

Maybe I just shop in the wrong WalMart, Lowes, etc.  Maybe I should put earplugs in my ears to avoid overhearing conversations.

Oh you mean "Kiss yer momma and git in the truck." and "Hey ya'll, watch theeis."

[sgrizzle]

Guess what I just got in the mail, the annual report for Jenks Public Schools.

Let's look at the numbers.

Jenks has 10,165 students and had a total annual operating budget of $63,947,342 for 2009-2010.

Per pupil spending $6,291

And yet at the state level is is $7,685

So it costs $1,400 to give $6,291 to Jenks?

[Red Arrow]

Oh you mean "Kiss yer momma and git in the truck." and "Hey ya'll, watch theeis."

Maybe you are fluent enough to hear and think in Spanish.  I am not.   I only had Spanish lessons for a while in Junior High School and that was a l-o-n-g time ago.  I actually don't care if someone wants to speak Spanish.  I only ask that if they want to live in the US, that they be functional in English.  Even Spanglish is not too bad since at least some level of communication can be obtained.  I don't care about accents too much either.  My grandfather still had a bit of a Polish accent in his English up to when he passed away at age 95.

[guido911]

Guess what I just got in the mail, the annual report for Jenks Public Schools.

Let's look at the numbers.

Jenks has 10,165 students and had a total annual operating budget of $63,947,342 for 2009-2010.

Per pupil spending $6,291

Jenks has 1,383 employees of which 730 are "certified" personel. From another source I found that 528 are teachers which means that 202 are Principals, Councilors, Therapists, Speech Pathologists, Curriculum experts etc. You can argue that schools shouldn't be in the business of therapy, speech pathology and the like, but the real world fact is that many kids with a lot problems that in the past weren't in schools have now been mainstreamed and the schools have to provide services to them. It's a huge part of the increase of the cost of schools over the last couple of decades.

Jenks also has another 201 employees who are teaching assistants/paraprofessionals. These people help with the large class sizes in the elementary grades and most of all with those handicapped kids. Some are assigned one aide to one handicapped kid.

That's 931 people out of 1,383 who are directly involved with teaching (and caring for) kids.

Who are the rest of the employees?
Well, 88 of them are daycare/before and after school care people. These salaries are largely self funding by fees to the parents that use the services so they don't really count. Then there's 83 people in transportation. Part time bus drivers aren't really a big impact to the budget. 89 cafeteria workers, again, to an extent self funding and they are often just part time anyway. That's now 1,192 employees out of 1,383 that are directly involved with kids. That leaves 191 "support" people. 8 cops, 12 people in IT, 14 print shop and warehouse people, 70 maintenance/custodians and finally 89 clerical/business office people. That is not a large support staff. Where would you cut there? That's 191 people to support 1,200 employees that work with over 10,000 kids.

Let's look at the budget. $63,947,342. Seems like a lot but $50,494,412 is salaries. Another $7,769,740 is benefits. 91.1% of the budget is Salary and Benefits. $978,189 of the remaining $5,683.190 is to outsourced services. Only 7.4% of the budget isn't employee related.

Where do you "reform" this, what cuts do you make to "put more money in the classroom"?

It's a fallacy. Certainly there is waste, any system that involves people is going to have waste, but there is no golden pot at the end of the budget rainbow that's going to fix schools without a lot more money.

You want better schools? It's really simple.

1.   Pay teachers more to encourage more and better qualified people to become teachers. The starting salary for a teacher in Oklahoma is $29,174. That's with a  degree, and post grad certification program and an internship. Dish Network has a huge sign on 71st where they will start anyone who can fog a mirror at $11.50 an hour. That's $23,920 to start. Average pay for a teacher is $38,772. It's damn hard to raise a family on just under 39k, even in low cost Oklahoma. Anyone with talent and smarts coming out of college, without a spouse making real money, is going to be hard pressed to choose to struggle through life because they wanted to teach. There are a lot of bad teachers, even in ideal teaching world  Jenks. This is why.

2.   Extend the school year. Again, that will drive more cost. Kids forget a lot over a 3 month summer. I've had teachers tell me that the first 6-8 weeks of the school year is a review time to get back what was forgotten over the summer.

3.   Class sizes. More individualized attention  leads to better learning, especially among kids that that come from less than ideal environments. We can say that learning starts in the home, and that is very true. But can we afford to create a permanent and angry underclass of people that schools fail because they come from bad parents. The kids of bad parents are only going to become the next generation of bad parents. The cost here is astronomical in welfare, criminal justice, and lost potential productivity alone. We have to work to break that cycle of poverty and it starts with schools, not welfare.

All three solutions will work, and all cost money. Certainly get rid of all these ridiculous tiny school districts. Root out administrators that do nothing. But at the end of the day the amounts of money you find there will not really address the real needs in the classroom.

Good work.

[Conan71]

Jenks has always been a pretty efficiently run district.  One of the reasons my kids have gone there is they are a model district in my book in terms of proper priorities, results, and parental involvement.

I've done considerable research on this and there's no credible studies showing that class size has a significant impact on students beyond the elementary level.  There's also no credible research showing a higher spending level per student provides better results.  Washington DC is near or at the top in spending per student and has some of the worst results.

And at some point we need to quit being apathetic toward waste.  We have got to quit the line of thinking that $200 million isn't significant in a system with a $5 bln budget or that $1 bln in a federal budget into the trillions isn't significant.  Find $800 mil more in waste in other areas of state government and you've suddenly come up with an additional 20% to put toward common education.

From another thread on SQ 744 regarding the meme of low teacher pay, it's in line with their peers with bachelors degrees for annual days worked:

People forget that the state-mandated minimum teacher's salary of $31,600 for nine months worth of work is $3511 per month, equivalent to 42,133 per year.  The teacher is free to take a job of their choice in the off months and many do while still enjoying great benefits like health insurance and a pension that many of their peers right out of college don't have.  In addition to that, they will have Social Security benefits upon retirement as well.

http://sde.state.ok.us/Teacher/Salary/default.html

Their pay is in line with other occupations requiring a bachelor's degree, considering they get a three month holiday every year, plus the school holidays to boot. (Recyclemichael said in that thread it's more like 2 months off.  A teacher in the Tulsa school system works 183 "contract" days). In other words, teaching isn't that bad of a gig. (considering the rest of us work approximately 240 to 250 days per year) For advance degree holders, I'd like to see a higher pay scale more commensurate with the effort and expense put into earning a master's or doctorate.  

In addition, teachers get a pension which is a perk most of us in the non-union public sector don't get.  From the TPS web site, TPS is paying approximately $449 per month in health insurance and I believe they have attractive dental and vision plans.

Median salaries, along with years of experience for those with bachelor's degrees.  Keep in mind, the teacher's salaries from the link above are state minimums.  Many districts pay above that scale.

(edited to add: thanks for breaking down the staffing and the other numbers at Jenks. It was a very well written and thoughtful post)

[TheArtist]

 Great post Swake.  

I am baffled as to why we still have a 3 month summer break?  There is absolutely no real reason to have a break that long.  I MAY take a one week vacation once a year myself.  3 friggin months?!  Thats insane!  Make it a 3 week summer break at most, then have another week, perhaps two, spread out during other times of the year, then add the rest of the time the teachers work to their salaries.  

The main problem I have with schools is apportionment of funds.  The schools that have students that don't need as much help (usually have good parents that make sure their child does well) often get the most money, while the schools that have students that need more help (lets say bad parenting and or socio-economic circumstances) seem to get the least funding.   One school with the good parents could actually be fine with larger class sizes, while the other school might be better with smaller class sizes (but I would like to see a proven program implemented over just adding more teachers and calling it a day).  

The other question I have is whether or not the different school types aka, suburban middle class students and urban or poor students get the appropriate "school type" or teaching styles.   Each type of demographic is going to require different methodologies, how the school is run, how the teachers teach, number and type of teachers, types of programs, etc.  You see successful examples and best practices that fit different demograpic/social situations all over the country.  I would like to see these best practices appropriately applied to schools here.  

When they were just asking for more money, my first thought and concern was... Where specifically will the money go?  What specifically will it go to?  What programs, which schools, etc?  For instance, perhaps they dont need more teachers per pupil in Jenks, or a new olympic sized pool, BUT I would like to see assistance going to a "proven to work for inner city type kids from distressed neighborhoods and homes" type program in some Tulsa schools.  

1.  Find out the situation in each school
2.  Find a best practices model for each situation
3.  Tell me what is needed and how much it will cost to implement...THEN ask me for more money if that is what is required.  

I can't for the life of me see how they could show that they needed more money, or how much would be needed until they showed me what specifically it would go towards.

Don't just ask for some vague "Getting us to the regional average" thing.  NOT gonna happen.  I want specifics.  Even with the specifics you would have a hard time in conservative Oklahoma.  Without it, you have lost even liberal leaning me. I want to know that the money is going to go to the right places and to the right, proven to work things.  Plus, if you implement and fund specific programs, ways of running the school, teaching styles, etc. you can then properly assess whether or not its working or not down the line and then be in a much better place to make changes.  But ya can't just ask me to throw more money at it without having a clue as to what is going to happen with it.  And I still havent been shown that more money is whats needed and why specifically its needed?!  

Give me something here other than "averages" lol.  I want to know whats going to work, then how much its going to cost to fund that.  THEN we can talk money.

[OpenYourEyesTulsa]

They should use technology to make everything cheaper and more effective.  South Korea will have robots in all of their classrooms within the next few years.  Textbooks should be replaced with laptops or e-readers.  Maybe have higher paid instructors teach online classes for multiple school districts.  I also feel like schools do a poor job of preparing students for college and the workforce.  Put emphasis on math and science rather than sports and music or else the US will lose out to India and China soon.  Sports and music should be funded by private money.  Home schooling or private schools are the best way to go and it would be nice if there were vouchers to help with those options.  If public school is the only option, parents should be allowed to send their kids to any district they want.  If a school district doesn't have enough students it should be closed.