Now That SQ 744 Has Tanked, What To Do About Common Education

[guido911]

Would you be so quick to defend vouchers for an otherwise equal school but different religion?  Let's pick the favorite, Islamic.

That's an intriguing question. Since I am really unsure what other religious attributes HH has, especially since it has a large Jewish student population, it's hard to answer. What would the Islamic school be doing from a religious point of view?

[Red Arrow]

That's an intriguing question. Since I am really unsure what other religious attributes HH has, especially since it has a large Jewish student population, it's hard to answer. What would the Islamic school be doing from a religious point of view?

I was thinking about prayers 5 times a day.  I don't know whether HH teaches Christianity but if it does, then the same concepts for any other religiously affiliated school.  As I have said in other threads, I don't mind teaching about a religion.  I just don't want my public tax dollars teaching a religion.  As I remember,  my childhood friends that went to Catholic school were being taught how to be good Catholics.  OK, just not on my dollar.

[cannon_fodder]

HH would probably pass my test.  If they accepted vouchers I think they would have to give kids/parents the option of skipping religious classes.  Otherwise in places like Tulsa thw voucher program would come with the caveat that your child be indoctrinated in Christianity.

I went to Catholic schools for 12 years.  We had muslims, jews, and other non catholics. 95% of the time religion did not come up; it did not effect the math curriculum, chemistry, science, history etc.  Teachers would on occasion answer questions about how x or y doesn't match the bible (or have a priest or whoever do so),  but nothing was withheld or changed because of religion.  Even in sex ed they taught about birth control while emphasizing abstinance.

The non catholics had the option of participating and giving their view in our religion classes, going to our weekly services - or doing another approved curriculum.

The problem with a fundamentalist religion getting public money to teach is that they must teach from the bible/koran or whatever.  If their book and science conflict, the book wins.  And that's not education - its religion.  Since public money can't be used to encourage religion...

Hence, that's the biggest issue with vouchers in tulsa.

[guido911]

HH would probably pass my test.  If they accepted vouchers I think they would have to give kids/parents the option of skipping religious classes.  Otherwise in places like Tulsa thw voucher program would come with the caveat that your child be indoctrinated in Christianity.

I went to Catholic schools for 12 years.  We had muslims, jews, and other non catholics. 95% of the time religion did not come up; it did not effect the math curriculum, chemistry, science, history etc.  Teachers would on occasion answer questions about how x or y doesn't match the bible (or have a priest or whoever do so),  but nothing was withheld or changed because of religion.  Even in sex ed they taught about birth control while emphasizing abstinance.

The non catholics had the option of participating and giving their view in our religion classes, going to our weekly services - or doing another approved curriculum.

The problem with a fundamentalist religion getting public money to teach is that they must teach from the bible/koran or whatever.  If their book and science conflict, the book wins.  And that's not education - its religion.  Since public money can't be used to encourage religion...

Hence, that's the biggest issue with vouchers in tulsa.

In fairness to this discussion, here is a link to HH's page relating to its "Episcopal" identity.

http://www.hollandhall.org/about/school-profile/episcopal-identity-community-service/

I am not Episcopalian, rather I am Roman Catholic. I have never seen anything remotely offensive or threatening about the religion aspect at HH.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Interesting how Guido would say, "I wouldn't call it a "religious" school by any means though."  Even when the school bills itself as an Episcopalian preparatory school.  A lot like saying Oral Roberts University isn't a religious school.


Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they only had an 8th grade education?  And how now days we so arrogantly look down on "self made" men and women who had those 8th grade educations thinking we are so much better because we finished high school?  Well at least some of us finished high school....

This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas , USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina , and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895

Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,''play,' and 'run.'
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. For tare?
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000.. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. Coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt


U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.


Orthography (Time, one hour)
[Do we even know what this is??]
1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.' (HUH?)
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis-mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks
and by syllabication.


Geography (Time, one hour)
1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia , Odessa , Denver , Manitoba , Hecla , Yukon , St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each..
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.

Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.

Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new meaning, doesn't it?!
Also shows you how poor our education system has become.  And how we CAN challenge our kids just a little bit more.

[Conan71]

HH would probably pass my test.  If they accepted vouchers I think they would have to give kids/parents the option of skipping religious classes.  Otherwise in places like Tulsa thw voucher program would come with the caveat that your child be indoctrinated in Christianity.

I went to Catholic schools for 12 years.  We had muslims, jews, and other non catholics. 95% of the time religion did not come up; it did not effect the math curriculum, chemistry, science, history etc.  Teachers would on occasion answer questions about how x or y doesn't match the bible (or have a priest or whoever do so),  but nothing was withheld or changed because of religion.  Even in sex ed they taught about birth control while emphasizing abstinance.

The non catholics had the option of participating and giving their view in our religion classes, going to our weekly services - or doing another approved curriculum.

The problem with a fundamentalist religion getting public money to teach is that they must teach from the bible/koran or whatever.  If their book and science conflict, the book wins.  And that's not education - its religion.  Since public money can't be used to encourage religion...

Hence, that's the biggest issue with vouchers in tulsa.

Sounds pretty much like my experience at Cascia Hall.  Non-Catholics were not required to take religion classes, though I did take a survey of world religions class as an elective.  Aside from developmental psych, probably the most interesting course I ever took in HS or college.  We were required to assemble in the chapel every morning for announcements, the pledge, and morning prayer.

If schools sponsored by churches were excluded from accepting vouchers, I believe that would remove all about three or four of them from the list in the Tulsa area.

[guido911]

Based on what heiron posted, I just learned that the University of Tulsa, where I graduated, is a religious school because of its affiliation with the Presbyterian church.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Nice try, but no cigar.

TU specifically says they are "The University of Tulsa is a private, non-sectarian institution that is formally related to the Presbyterian Church (USA) by a mutually articulated covenant with the Synod of the Sun."

HH specifically says, right under their name, "an independent college preparatory Episcopal school".

Sectarian versus non.

Hey! How about that!  I graduated there, too!!  (TU, not Holland Hall)

[guido911]

Nice try, but no cigar.

TU specifically says they are "The University of Tulsa is a private, non-sectarian institution that is formally related to the Presbyterian Church (USA) by a mutually articulated covenant with the Synod of the Sun."

HH specifically says, right under their name, "an independent college preparatory Episcopal school".

Sectarian versus non.

Hey! How about that!  I graduated there, too!!  (TU, not Holland Hall)

And I'm telling you that as a parent of two at HH that I see very little "religion" there. Any other TNF folks have kids there with a thought rooted in actual knowledge?

[nathanm]

Nate:
So HH, one of the finest college preparatory schools in the state, would not qualify for receiving voucher money because their student's pray? You would deprive an underprivileged child a chance at real academic success because of that?

If prayer and/or religious education (think Sunday School as opposed to Comparative Religious Studies) is required of all students, then yes, I would indeed deprive Holland Hall of state funds to enroll children were I King. If the religion is optional (as I understand it to be at TU), that's perfectly fine by me. Note that I don't speak for the ACLU.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Perhaps they have decided that religious beliefs are an intensely personal decision that should not be rammed down someones throat.  I applaud HH!  I have had friends in the past who went there (70s) and they were good people who got a decent education.  I hope your kids do well!  And only give you a minimum of teen grief!  (Absolutely no irony, satire, or sarcasm here at all - only truth.)

[Gaspar]

And I'm telling you that as a parent of two at HH that I see very little "religion" there. Any other TNF folks have kids there with a thought rooted in actual knowledge?

I went to HH until 8th grade.  I did have Father Taylor for English.  Don't remember much religion being taught?  About half of the kids were Jewish anyway, so I doubt you could classify it as a Christian school. 

[guido911]

I went to HH until 8th grade.  I did have Father Taylor for English.  Don't remember much religion being taught?  About half of the kids were Jewish anyway, so I doubt you could classify it as a Christian school. 

There were numerous Bar and Bat Mitzvah parties last year that my child attended.

[Conan71]

I went to HH until 8th grade.  I did have Father Taylor for English.  Don't remember much religion being taught?  About half of the kids were Jewish anyway, so I doubt you could classify it as a Christian school. 

I hadn't thought of him for years.  I went to HH K and 1st.  There were a couple of others I remember serving in the EC when I was growing up.

[guido911]

Supreme Court clears way for tax credits for private school scholarships.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/04/tax-credits-for-religious-school-scholarships-ruled-constitutional/

Wondering if I can create the "Guido911 Scholarship" and award it to my children each year.