This is Funny!

[Gaspar]

[nathanm]

You may not like their accomplishments, but as the Tea Partiers were/are pointing out so loudly and proudly, they managed to ram through an awful lot of their "socialist" agenda.

[Gaspar]

You may not like their accomplishments, but as the Tea Partiers were/are pointing out so loudly and proudly, they managed to ram through an awful lot of their "socialist" agenda.

Excellent point! 

It will take years to repair the damage and recoup the debt.

[nathanm]

It will take years to repair the damage and recoup the debt.

You may have missed that the "socialist" agenda was mostly paid for. The stimulus spending is pretty much done. A recent study on Massachusetts' state HCR indicates that it's pretty likely that PPACA will indeed save money in the long run. Despite not achieving universal coverage, emergency room hospital admissions are down significantly, stay lengths have decreased, and readmissions have gone down significantly. All because people can get treatment before they become gravely ill.

I'm not quite sure what you think we're blowing the budget on, other than war, tax cuts, and a mere $40-$50 billion for the Bush and Obama bailouts. Our ballooning deficit is almost entirely due to decreases in tax receipts, not increases in spending. One time spending projects don't really matter, it's the ongoing bleeding that causes a long term problem.

[Townsend]

You may have missed that the "socialist" agenda was mostly paid for. The stimulus spending is pretty much done. A recent study on Massachusetts' state HCR indicates that it's pretty likely that PPACA will indeed save money in the long run. Despite not achieving universal coverage, emergency room hospital admissions are down significantly, stay lengths have decreased, and readmissions have gone down significantly. All because people can get treatment before they become gravely ill.

I'm not quite sure what you think we're blowing the budget on, other than war, tax cuts, and a mere $40-$50 billion for the Bush and Obama bailouts. Our ballooning deficit is almost entirely due to decreases in tax receipts, not increases in spending. One time spending projects don't really matter, it's the ongoing bleeding that causes a long term problem.

Remember how he reads the market.  His opinions are suspect.

[Gaspar]

You may have missed that the "socialist" agenda was mostly paid for. The stimulus spending is pretty much done. A recent study on Massachusetts' state HCR indicates that it's pretty likely that PPACA will indeed save money in the long run. Despite not achieving universal coverage, emergency room hospital admissions are down significantly, stay lengths have decreased, and readmissions have gone down significantly. All because people can get treatment before they become gravely ill.

I'm not quite sure what you think we're blowing the budget on, other than war, tax cuts, and a mere $40-$50 billion for the Bush and Obama bailouts. Our ballooning deficit is almost entirely due to decreases in tax receipts, not increases in spending. One time spending projects don't really matter, it's the ongoing bleeding that causes a long term problem.

Perhaps you are right.  Socialism may be a less expensive option for us.  I just don't find much historical precedent for that.  A sad part of our human nature is that when we are made dependent, we tend to expand our dependence.  Conversely, when we are given independence we achieve and innovate.  All socialized systems eventually collapse under the weight of the dependents they create.  They are easy to sell because they promote the concept of "access to all," but they end up providing quality and freedom for none.

At a time when the economy and jobs should have been top priority we got Healthcare spending and a list of Keynesian initiatives that arrested our ability as a country to move past this recession.  We should have been in a strong recovery by now, but instead we are still talking about raising taxes on businesses and adding new burdens in the name of government expansion.

The people have spoken, and as Leno said last night on his show "Who better to be minority leader than Nancy Pelosi, the one responsible for putting the Democrats in the minority."

[nathanm]

Perhaps you are right.  Socialism may be a less expensive option for us.  I just don't find much historical precedent for that.  A sad part of our human nature is that when we are made dependent, we tend to expand our dependence.  Conversely, when we are given independence we achieve and innovate.  All socialized systems eventually collapse under the weight of the dependents they create.  They are easy to sell because they promote the concept of "access to all," but they end up providing quality and freedom for none.

Buying things (even when forced) from private companies is not socialist. There is another word for that. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

[Gaspar]

Buying things (even when forced) from private companies is not socialist. There is another word for that. I'll let you figure it out for yourself.

Exactly!  It is an issue of "force" over "choice."  The lexicon is unimportant.  It is, at its very core, wrong.  What ever lipstick you wish to slap on it, it's not constitutional. We are not subjects who will simply abide. 

The House was lost the moment that Speaker Pelosi told us "We would have to pass the bill to see what is in it."  That phrase was the cannonball that sunk the ship.  At that point the American people realized they were being ruled, rather than represented. 

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. – Robert Heinlein

The triumph of persuasion over force is the sign of a civilized society. – Mark Skousen

Whatever the issue, let freedom offer us a hundred choices, instead of having government force one answer on everyone. – Harry Browne

In a republican nation whose citizens are to be led by reason and persuasion and not by force, the art of reasoning becomes of first importance. – Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we depart from voluntary cooperation and try to do good by using force, the bad moral value of force triumphs over good intentions. – Milton Friedman

He is free who lives as he wishes to live; who is neither subject to compulsion nor to hindrance, nor to force; whose movements to action are not impeded, whose desires attain their purpose, and who does not fall into that which he would avoid. – Epictetus (ca 55-135 A.D.), Discourses, ca 100 A.D.

[nathanm]

Exactly!  It is an issue of "force" over "choice."  The lexicon is unimportant.  It is, at its very core, wrong.  What ever lipstick you wish to slap on it, it's not constitutional. We are not subjects who will simply abide. 

I'm sure it is/will be challenged in court. We'll see about the constitutionality.

Those were some nice quotes, but you're going to be hard pressed to find a tsunami of people who don't believe in paying taxes.

[Conan71]

I'm sure it is/will be challenged in court. We'll see about the constitutionality.

Those were some nice quotes, but you're going to be hard pressed to find a tsunami of people who don't believe in paying taxes.

I'm sure there's a claven or two up in the woods in Montana...

[nathanm]

I'm sure there's a claven or two up in the woods in Montana...

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of people who refuse to pay taxes. I think it's generally a fringe set that thinks that all taxes are immoral, though. You might, someday, find me complaining that my taxes are too high, but I doubt you'll find me saying that I shouldn't be paying any tax at all, unless we turn into Nazi Germany and start gassing our minorities. That might be enough to make me think it was immoral to pay tax to my country.

[Red Arrow]

... unless we turn into Nazi Germany and start gassing our minorities.

A few more years and that will be white males.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Correct on one thing - finally!  It will take years to reverse the damage and recoup the debt.  Since the deficit this year - ending Sept 31 (Obama's first), is down from Bush's last year, I guess it must be a good thing that we FINALLY got started on the process, huh?

It will take years to reverse the damage done by Baby Bush and the Murdochian/Rove regime.  And saving $180 billion is a pretty good start for healthcare!

Too bad a little truth from the RWRE is not imminent.  Except from penitents like David Brown.

[Conan71]

A few more years and that will be white males.

Nails it.