It's unanimous -- time for a third party

[RecycleMichael]

It's bi-party and I will cry if I want to.

[Conan71]

I fail to see how President Obama shafted the "working" man with this compromise.  The real shaft to "working" people (whatever that class envy/warfare term is supposed to imply) ostensibly would have been to let their U/E benefits expire.

I do agree with Reich on one point he made, although I'm not so sure I trust he's not speaking of a "People's Republik".  We do need to restore the power of government back to the people, that is essentially what the Tea Party has been about all along.  Come up with a serious clamp-down on lobbyists, soft money vehicles, and change our pay-to-play system though I fear it may be far too late to make a serious change.

I find it interesting that Liberals have excoriated conservatives and have spent nearly two years poking fun at and trying to discredit the Tea Party as a bunch of disaffected right wingers.  Now that they feel they aren't being heard a third party is suddenly an acceptible vehicle.  How original.  Libs need to realize that out of liberal/moderate/conservative they are basically 1/5 of the political scene.  They need to accept that 80% of the rest of Americans don't ascribe to their world and political views hook, line, and sinker.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/141032/2010-conservatives-outnumber-moderates-liberals.aspx

[waterboy]

THere you go Red. Be consistent. Twist that one back on itself.

[Red Arrow]

THere you go Red. Be consistent. Twist that one back on itself.

Which one?

[bokworker]

The good news for the Republicans is that they got all of the Bush tax cuts extended...the bad news for the Republican's MAY be that they got the Bush tax cuts extended. Now all of the business owners and politicians that stated that a major headwind to more hiring was the uncertainty over tax policy now have certainty. It is put up or shut up time. We have unemployment at 9.8% (stated I know and the underemployment number is much higher). In 2 years if the rate is not much lower and the economy much better then the argument for lower taxes being the ultimate economic elixir will be moot.

Are the Democrats now in the position of hoping for failure on the part of the economy and country so they can make another run at their ideology?

Tit for tat, tax rates for unemployment benefits. Winner/losers...... politicos are whining or crowing about the shifting winds but we haven't even started on the really hard work...

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ok, now that the uncertainty is gone, who has hired someone today??  Your bluff HAS been called!  Do something!
(We have been hiring about as fast as ever have.)


Good to know that the rich get a full 24 months of tax break extension!  That makes it only slightly more difficult for them to complain about the extra 13 months of unemployment.  That disparity is not quite 2 to 1, so I guess the poor get a break from the more normal 4 to 1 (and more) disparity in tax treatment.  Wow!  Merry Christmas!!

[guido911]

Ok, now that the uncertainty is gone, who has hired someone today??  Your bluff HAS been called!  Do something!
(We have been hiring about as fast as ever have.)


Good to know that the rich get a full 24 months of tax break extension!  That makes it only slightly more difficult for them to complain about the extra 13 months of unemployment.  That disparity is not quite 2 to 1, so I guess the poor get a break from the more normal 4 to 1 (and more) disparity in tax treatment.  Wow!  Merry Christmas!!

[Gaspar]

Ok, now that the uncertainty is gone, who has hired someone today??  Your bluff HAS been called!  Do something!
(We have been hiring about as fast as ever have.)


Good to know that the rich get a full 24 months of tax break extension!  That makes it only slightly more difficult for them to complain about the extra 13 months of unemployment.  That disparity is not quite 2 to 1, so I guess the poor get a break from the more normal 4 to 1 (and more) disparity in tax treatment.  Wow!  Merry Christmas!!

We hired one programmer today.  Now we have to relocate him from Virginia Beach.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'm sure you couldn't care less, but I am very happy for you, your company, and the guy you hired.  More economic activity for Tulsa.  VERY good thing!

[heironymouspasparagus]

I guess Guido is crying because he only gets to keep double the rate of everyone else!  Ahhhhh, poor Richey Rich!

[waterboy]

Which one?

Conan's last weakly substantiated paragraph. Turn that one around to its other side. After years of excoriating Libs and likening them to a sickness which must be excised from the patient before it consumes him, there should be no surprise that most Americans refrain from describing themselves as a Liberal lest they expose themselves to ridicule, or worse. Take a look at remarks made on Yahoo following the story about Elizabeth Edwards' death. "So what, Leftists aren't even human. They're killing our country", was the third remark made, but not the only one "excoriating" liberals, and this as a woman lay in her death bed. Classy. You expect people to call themselves liberals when they are promoted as less than human, morons and traitors? That's pre war Germany stuff.

Yet, when Americans are asked about issues that are mainstream Liberal or Democratic foundations, like health care, fair taxation, social security, human rights, etc. and are not told what party or movement promotes them, guess what? They agree with them. They have moderate to Liberal tendencies. Imagine that. Gallup doesn't really test for that or if they do it isn't picked up on Conan's radar.

The strangest part to me is that if 80% of the population supports Conservatives and Conservative ideals, have elected politicians who have done the same, pretty much control most of the state legislators and have succeeded in loading up the Supreme Court with them.....why are things so grim? Why is our economy so screwed? Liberals must be the most powerful force on earth lead by an alien force of supreme power to counteract all the wonderful ideas and powerful logic they face in conservatism.

Yeah, that's it. Aliens. Eating our brains. Deluding us into gaying up and ending civilization quietly.

[guido911]

Conan's last weakly substantiated paragraph. Turn that one around to its other side. After years of excoriating Libs and likening them to a sickness which must be excised from the patient before it consumes him, there should be no surprise that most Americans refrain from describing themselves as a Liberal lest they expose themselves to ridicule, or worse. Take a look at remarks made on Yahoo following the story about Elizabeth Edwards' death. "So what, Leftists aren't even human. They're killing our country", was the third remark made, but not the only one "excoriating" liberals, and this as a woman lay in her death bed. Classy. You expect people to call themselves liberals when they are promoted as less than human, morons and traitors? That's pre war Germany stuff.

This bit of hypocrisy brought to you by a guy who called tea partiers "teabaggers". As for the morons that took a cheap shot at the left under a story about Edwards' passing, I trust you are similarly upset with those wishing/hoping for Cheney's death.

http://media.eyeblast.org/newsbusters/static/2009/05/2009-05-11-SchultzShow-Schultz3.mp3

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/07/18/du-to-dick-cheney-drop-dead/

[waterboy]

They called themselves Teabaggers. I did too, unaware of its sexual connotation until later. But thanks for following my posts while, as usual, ignoring their context and meaning. But really, Conan can take care of himself. I thought you, G, of all people would be a stickler for fairness. Red thinks that liberals vs conservative is just an opinion thing and wants to twist sentences back on themselves. Just returning the favor. You often do the same thing so you should be proud that you're a leader in this regard.

It wasn't Liberals who called Conservatives traitors on national TV and in print, that was Ann Coulter. See any prominent Liberals do that? I'm sure you'll find one. But no one comes to mind because no one did it with such venom and hate. No one in their right mind tells friends and co-workers in Oklahoma that they are Liberal when the boss has a bumper sticker that says, "how you like that change now?" or who spreads those cute memos talking about changes in the workplace that mean firing Obama supporters. Gingrich led the troops well. He gave them the skills and guys like DeLay enforced them with his velvet hammer. Two decades of demonizing has been very successful. I actually am impressed with their co-opting of marketing and consumer behavior teachings from the 60's. Liberal Democrats thought it was an aberration.

Now Churchill's famous remark that "No young man with a heart can be anything but liberal, and no old man with a brain can be anything but conservative" (sorry for the butchering of the quote) has been turned against him. He meant that part of life lessons is in moving through phases of compassion mixed with experience. You leave out a part of the formula when you corrupt youth into bypassing liberal precepts. You just become cynical. I am vastly more conservative than I was at 21 but alas, the generations behind me never even grasped what was common belief in my youth. Now my moderate views are considered practically socialist.

Nonetheless, another weird thing about polls, Gallup didn't do too well the last couple of elections. But unlike others, I didn't challenge their veracity because of where I read their results (often on Fox, often on Huffington). They simply aren't as good as they used to be. Here's another cool thing about polling issues.... American's were presented with a short paragraph back in the 80's that described a set of political views and were asked whether they supported such views. They overwhelmingly did not. In fact they considered them dangerously socialist. That paragraph was the Preamble to our constitution. It was funny at the time. Polls about issues are easily manipulated/mangled or just plain badly done and rarely represent the real beliefs of the interviewed.

[Red Arrow]

WB,
You are (un)lucky enough that I am on vacation and have the time to respond.

One is that the right wing is a lot more adept at achieving their goals at all costs than the left. Truth and conscience be damned they will sell granny out for the right price.

I consider that to be pretty inflammatory and uncalled for.  I also happen to believe that the left is just as he11 bent on passing what it thinks is right regardless of the consequences.  What you think is right or good/bad for the country is where opinion comes into play.

Quote from: Ed W on December 06, 2010, 09:49:59 pm
I'd find it very hard to believe that the right wing culture warriors could set aside their insistence that those of us on the left are somehow drunken, pot smoking, unabashed sinners hell bent on...well...hell.

my response:

You forgot pot smoking. Get the stereotype right.  

I'd find it very difficult to believe that the left wing could set aside their insistence that everyone right of somewhere slightly left of center is a religious tea partying right wing culture warrior crackpot.

I haven't heard too much lately from the left about responsible conservatives doing what they feel is right for the country.  All I hear about from the left is the RWRE and Tea Party leading the country to destruction.

If you are objecting to the pot smoking comment, Where's your sense of humor?  I even put the smiley after it.

From Hoss:

The way I see it is that the TP has fractured the 'real' Republican party in such a way that those people that, as you put it, are 'right of somewhere slightly left of center' had to coddle to those far right extremists during election season, so as not to piss off that ever-growing TP population.

I see it more as not having a good, moderate selection from the left.  Given a choice between extreme left and extreme right, it appears from the last election that a lot of people turned right.   I do not see it as coddling the TP.  There were some notable exceptions to turning right like the Senate race in Delaware.  I (have to) admit that I even voted for a few Ds last election since I saw them as more reasonable or qualified than the R choice.  In a couple of cases it wasn't actually that difficult.

from we vs us:

And Red Arrow, if the American Left had any ability to get things done at all you'd have a single payer healthcare option, billions more in s From timulus for infrastructure investment rather than tax cuts, and a higher tolerance for flexible tax policy.  The fact that these things are all not only NOT in current legislation after the Ds controlled Congress and the White House, but are actually things we can't really talk about as future policy says all it needs to about the ability of the left to get things done.

OK, you didn't get exactly what you wanted. The extreme left didn't get their way entirely.  The fact that the rest of the left got what they did is testimony to their ability to get things done.  The so-called party of "no" couldn't stop them.  I actually see it as two parties of "no compromise" and think it may actually be time for a party in the middle. The true middle, not somewhere left of California.

And from you:

Conan's last weakly substantiated paragraph. Turn that one around to its other side. After years of excoriating Libs and likening them to a sickness which must be excised from the patient before it consumes him, there should be no surprise that most Americans refrain from describing themselves as a Liberal lest they expose themselves to ridicule, or worse.

Why should I want to do that?  I generally do not support the liberal positon.  You did a fine job.

Take a look at remarks made on Yahoo following the story about Elizabeth Edwards' death. "So what, Leftists aren't even human. They're killing our country", was the third remark made, but not the only one "excoriating" liberals, and this as a woman lay in her death bed. Classy.

I agree, not too classy.  I used to watch Letterman.  During the 2008 election, he became so vile and insulting to anyone not a left winger that I refuse to watch him even now.

You expect people to call themselves liberals when they are promoted as less than human, morons and traitors? That's pre war Germany stuff.

I haven't seen you being too warm and friendly to conservatives.

I personally can't understand why anyone would want to call themselves liberal but acknowledge that the need exists in some people.  

Yet, when Americans are asked about issues that are mainstream Liberal or Democratic foundations, like health care, fair taxation, social security, human rights, etc. and are not told what party or movement promotes them, guess what? They agree with them. They have moderate to Liberal tendencies. Imagine that. Gallup doesn't really test for that or if they do it isn't picked up on Conan's radar.

What? You're not claiming mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet (sorry Ford and MOPAR fans, it's a saying) as mainstream liberal/Democratic exclusives?

Ask almost anyone in the USA if they want health care reform and you will get a "yes".   Then ask them how they want to do it and the answers will diverge.  

Fair taxation is the same way.  There have been several threads here on what everyone thinks is fair taxation.  

I see Social Security as a forced savings plan for retirement.  The first recipients got something for nothing but not since then.  I see this as a  reasonable compromise between liberals and stereotype heartless conservatives.  There is something to insure you won't starve in your senior years and you were forced to contribute towards that support. If you want a better retirement, plan for it.  Would I like a retirement plan like my dad had? (He contributed a significant amount of his salary which was partly matched by his employer to insure a reasonable income for him and/or mom for life. Typical for salary-exempt employees of his generation.) Sure, but they are mostly not available for a variety of reasons that could make another thread.  I contribute to a 401K plan and my employer matches some of my contributions.  I have also worked where there was a 401K but no matching contributions.

The strangest part to me is that if 80% of the population supports Conservatives and Conservative ideals, have elected politicians who have done the same, pretty much control most of the state legislators and have succeeded in loading up the Supreme Court with them.....why are things so grim? Why is our economy so screwed?

I believe that the ideals of both parties are similar if you limit yourself to the ideal and keep away from specific items and the methods of getting there.  I don't see conservatives calling for elimination of all health care options such that everything would come out of your personal wallet.  I don't see conservatives saying that all income above $250,000. should be tax free.  There are obviously some differences of opinion belief of how to get to the basic goal.( Ex: Ideal, everyone should have healthcare. Specific, one payer government plan. Specific, private payer system.)

Liberals must be the most powerful force on earth lead by an alien force of supreme power to counteract all the wonderful ideas and powerful logic they face in conservatism.

Aliens, yeah, that would explain liberals. Oh yeah, are there no derogatory insinuations in "wonderful ideas and powerful logic"?  You are not helping your case that conservatives should be kinder to liberals. Take the first step.  You can do it. You are better than conservatives, you are a liberal.  (Yes, that was intended as a smart butt remark.)

Yeah, that's it. Aliens. Eating our brains. Deluding us into gaying up and ending civilization quietly.

Are you saying that gays have had their brains eaten by aliens?  That doesn't seem very liberal of you to even say that while trying to vilify conservatives.  It might give them (hostage taker conservatives) ideas.

Edit: change non-exempt to salary-exempt.  I usually get that backward the first try.







[Conan71]

They called themselves Teabaggers. I did too, unaware of its sexual connotation until later. But thanks for following my posts while, as usual, ignoring their context and meaning. But really, Conan can take care of himself. I thought you, G, of all people would be a stickler for fairness. Red thinks that liberals vs conservative is just an opinion thing and wants to twist sentences back on themselves. Just returning the favor. You often do the same thing so you should be proud that you're a leader in this regard.

It wasn't Liberals who called Conservatives traitors on national TV and in print, that was Ann Coulter. See any prominent Liberals do that? I'm sure you'll find one. But no one comes to mind because no one did it with such venom and hate. No one in their right mind tells friends and co-workers in Oklahoma that they are Liberal when the boss has a bumper sticker that says, "how you like that change now?" or who spreads those cute memos talking about changes in the workplace that mean firing Obama supporters. Gingrich led the troops well. He gave them the skills and guys like DeLay enforced them with his velvet hammer. Two decades of demonizing has been very successful. I actually am impressed with their co-opting of marketing and consumer behavior teachings from the 60's. Liberal Democrats thought it was an aberration.

Now Churchill's famous remark that "No young man with a heart can be anything but liberal, and no old man with a brain can be anything but conservative" (sorry for the butchering of the quote) has been turned against him. He meant that part of life lessons is in moving through phases of compassion mixed with experience. You leave out a part of the formula when you corrupt youth into bypassing liberal precepts. You just become cynical. I am vastly more conservative than I was at 21 but alas, the generations behind me never even grasped what was common belief in my youth. Now my moderate views are considered practically socialist.

Nonetheless, another weird thing about polls, Gallup didn't do too well the last couple of elections. But unlike others, I didn't challenge their veracity because of where I read their results (often on Fox, often on Huffington). They simply aren't as good as they used to be. Here's another cool thing about polling issues.... American's were presented with a short paragraph back in the 80's that described a set of political views and were asked whether they supported such views. They overwhelmingly did not. In fact they considered them dangerously socialist. That paragraph was the Preamble to our constitution. It was funny at the time. Polls about issues are easily manipulated/mangled or just plain badly done and rarely represent the real beliefs of the interviewed.

That's quite a ramble.

I generally find people more entrenched to the far left or far right are either much more intolerant of opposing views or simply believe anyone who disagrees with their world view is entirely wrong alltogether.  You even take it to the extent of suggesting there are far more closeted liberals out there, they simply won't admit it for fear of being lampooned and carted off to an internment camp.  Can you not see this same behavior being put upon the Christian right in this country?  People on either end of the spectrum are being villified with ever-increasing acrimony.  The real shame of it is the 60% or so of us in the middle of the political and social view spectrum are being over-shadowed by a much smaller and fractured percent of the populace.  I suspect it's because the moderate view is maybe boring and the liberal-pandering and conservative-pandering media don't cover it.  It sells more ads to show people carrying guns at Tea Party rallies or libs staging peace rallies.