Bar Stool Economics

[nathanm]

Just answer Moon's question.

The question was meaningless because he asked about "those that do" and "those that don't". It might have some meaning if he asked about "those who have" and "those who don't have," but then you get into value judgments, so it's again an impossible question to answer when the person who asked it has a different system of values and ethics than the person answering. Without a common frame of reference, any answer I give will not compute, so I try to stick to what's best for us all economically. We all share a common frame of reference in that we all agree that capitalism is the best system we've got.

In that context, leaving people behind deprives you of more money than you are deprived of by the government helping the destitute. More people actively in the economy improves said economy and makes us all richer. The most wealthy derive the most benefit from that, but even those of us who aren't as wealthy benefit.

Red Arrow, it's certainly best if people don't specialize in things that end up being useless, but when they're 5 or 6 years through 7 years of schooling, it's not yet clear that you're screwed after finishing the 7th, and you're $250,000 in debt, what do you expect them to do? It's unfortunate that our present system for financing higher education leads to misallocation of resources in that way, but it's what we've got.

[guido911]

Here's my position. If you are "poor", those folks that pay ZERO federal income tax yet get the exact same benefits from government as the "rich, you have no business bitching about anyone paying more in taxes. It's both sickening and galling.

[nathanm]

Here's my position. If you are "poor", those folks that pay ZERO federal income tax yet get the exact same benefits from government as the "rich, you have no business bitching about anyone paying more in taxes. It's both sickening and galling.

Well, I hope I don't sicken and gall you, since I pay plenty of income tax.

[heironymouspasparagus]

An even bigger reason the question is meaningless is because it presumes that in some strange, distorted Bizarro world, the rich actually pay more than most of us.  And the FACT that they pay about half overall has been discussed, demonstrated, illustrated and beat to death.  But knowing that would mean they would have to take their head out of that brown, brown world of Rupert and company.

And doesn't it seem just a "wee bit" disingenuous of Guido to demand an "answer" when so many of his aren't.  But they are misspelled profanity to "wink-wink" mask the fact.  Or just resulting to insults and name calling.

[Red Arrow]

An even bigger reason the question is meaningless is because it presumes that in some strange, distorted Bizarro world, the rich actually pay more than most of us.  And the FACT that they pay about half overall has been discussed, demonstrated, illustrated and beat to death.  But knowing that would mean they would have to take their head out of that brown, brown world of Rupert and company.
And doesn't it seem just a "wee bit" disingenuous of Guido to demand an "answer" when so many of his aren't.  But they are misspelled profanity to "wink-wink" mask the fact.  Or just resulting to insults and name calling.

I find it highly unlikely that the "rich" pay less dollars than I do.  It wouldn't surprise me that they pay less percentage than I do.

[TulsaMoon]

I have an old high school friend of mine that has made and lost tons of money, more than I will ever see in my lifetime for sure. He is now flat broke and lives in the house he grew up in and was handed down to him. He does nothing but sit in his lazyboy ( my earlier comment ) and collects money off the State. He refuses to get a job and or start a new company. He is by far not a stupid man and could regain his old life style and become productive once again. His answer is why should I?

I asked the % question because and due to him. He showed me his returns his accountant did years ago in which millions were paid in taxes. He showed me what he received last year from the government in the amount of thousands. His reply again is why? He has a house for free, receives what he terms as free money from the masses and does nothing to contribute now in his life.

Trying to have a conversation with someone that has been on the extremes of both sides has been a battle I have lost many times over with him.

Like most here on the forums I worked very hard to get to where I am today. Yes MANY people do cheat and lie to climb the ladder of the money tree. Most I dare say work hard to get there. I am an Engineer, I have specialized in cryogenics and work with superconducting magnets both in the medical and research field. I am by no means rich or even close to it, but I do carry the feelings of why?

I thank you all for your thoughts here and I will take some with me in my next sit down with him.

[we vs us]

I have an old high school friend of mine that has made and lost tons of money, more than I will ever see in my lifetime for sure. He is now flat broke and lives in the house he grew up in and was handed down to him. He does nothing but sit in his lazyboy ( my earlier comment ) and collects money off the State. He refuses to get a job and or start a new company. He is by far not a stupid man and could regain his old life style and become productive once again. His answer is why should I?

I asked the % question because and due to him. He showed me his returns his accountant did years ago in which millions were paid in taxes. He showed me what he received last year from the government in the amount of thousands. His reply again is why? He has a house for free, receives what he terms as free money from the masses and does nothing to contribute now in his life.

Trying to have a conversation with someone that has been on the extremes of both sides has been a battle I have lost many times over with him.

Like most here on the forums I worked very hard to get to where I am today. Yes MANY people do cheat and lie to climb the ladder of the money tree. Most I dare say work hard to get there. I am an Engineer, I have specialized in cryogenics and work with superconducting magnets both in the medical and research field. I am by no means rich or even close to it, but I do carry the feelings of why?

I thank you all for your thoughts here and I will take some with me in my next sit down with him.

It sounds like your friend is more depressed than making a conscious ideological or economic choice. Usually folks who've done what your friend has done have a drive that, all things being equal, keep them up and running in good and bad times.  If his drive is broken down that tells me he might be more in a mental hole than might be obvious at first blush.

[TulsaMoon]

It sounds like your friend is more depressed than making a conscious ideological or economic choice. Usually folks who've done what your friend has done have a drive that, all things being equal, keep them up and running in good and bad times.  If his drive is broken down that tells me he might be more in a mental hole than might be obvious at first blush.

Thats putting it mild for sure. He is a broken man and the drive that was in his eyes all his life is now gone.

[heironymouspasparagus]

It's all about the percentages.  Unless there is some psycho rationalization that everyone should pay a fixed number - say $50,000 per year.  Great for the rich guy.  Kinda puts the rest of us in a bind....

TulsaMoon,
Sounds like the friend has really lost his way in the weeds!  And no, not the smokin' kind!  Kind of like what we have done as a nation and society in the last 30 to 40 years.  To blatantly steal a phrase, we were the ones making Thunderbirds ("see" Bob Seger if the reference is too obscure).  WE were the ones who went to the moon.  Repeatedly.  We are the ones squandering the legacy of the greatest single group of people the history of the world has ever seen!

Here is something that always cheers me up when I get down in those kind of moods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InRDF_0lfHk&feature=fvw

And just to be sure to be the most Politically Incorrect (with capital letters!) on the board;

MERRY CHRISTMAS, One and All!!

And Happy New Year!!

Really!!