Economics/Moralities

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I was a bit off with the vision as far as motion, (I don't regularly check Wiki, instead relying on a more sophisticated but perhaps less reliable search engine, my cerebrum) but this site said nothing about their auditory abilities-

Nonetheless, I remain confidant that most birds may perceive of the slower motion of a human but have no idea what that motion represents other than possible food, mating or danger. They also have little ability to communicate outside of their own type which is the basis of my analogy. IIRC, they cannot distinguish the meaning of another type of birds' call or sometimes even hear it at all.

Which was an analogy meant to highlight the main feature of the discussion. Danged engineer.

I haven't read the whole article yet but the "Function" section indicates that birds have pretty good hearing and can hear other species too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_vocalization

The "slower motion of a human" is not that we move slower but that birds see it as a series of still shots like we might see something at just a few frames per second. I believe an equivalent for us would be to see movement in a stroboscope lit room.  (Think disco, as painful as it may be.)  The motion isn't smooth, it is a series of new positions.  I don't know how that is evaluated by the bird's brain.  If I described a motion to you of a human raising his/her arm above the shoulder and then moving the hand laterally back and forth,  how would you interpret it?  It could be waving hello or goodbye.  It could be someone trying to get a taxi.  It could be someone trying to get the attention of a group leader (elementary school kid needing to use the restroom).   Our species has a habit of misinterpreting motions and configurations of the body even within ourselves, especially across cultures.  The raised fist of the black movement in the 60s symbolized togetherness among blacks.  Whites interpreted it as a symbol of aggression.

I would agree that interpretation of the meaning of movements and sounds can be wrong or missing.  I believe that seeing or hearing them is not the issue in most cases as birds seem to have more versatile sensors than humans.

Danged Engineer
(It's just the way I am.)

[guido911]

You were lucky to be born here, that was the first bit. If you weren't born here, you were lucky to be born to parents who had the foresight to bring you here. If you weren't brought here as a child, you were lucky to win the immigration lottery.

So yeah, from your first breath you have been one of the lucky and privileged few, just as each and every one of us who lives in the US is.

You seem to think that being lucky means you can sit back and do nothing and let the dough roll in. I have never said that. I have never belittled your hard work and sacrifice. You seem to think that luck is like a lazy Christian's conception of prayer. It's not winning the lottery, it's finding yourself in a situation where hard work and sacrifice will actually get you somewhere. For some people, that's just not the case.

Again, I don't see the insult. Maybe you can explain it to me more slowly and in smaller words.

By your thinking everyone that managed to survive birth in this country is "lucky". As such, the playing field is equal for all, the "fortunate" and "less fortunate". So now what's your point about "luck". Oh, and I consider surviving birth as a blessing from God and not luck.

[waterboy]

??
The latest reference for the Wiki article was 1998. That was 13 years ago. Pretty sure I read or heard this discussion at least within the last decade. Wiki isn't the most reliable anyway. Nonetheless, couldn't find any reference to auditory or "function" on the link you provided. Do you think birds of different species communicate with each other through sound? If so, I saw nothing to indicate that yet. I will never resort to getting Wiki'd up before I make comments on a forum about what I admittedly noted I had read or heard somewhere. But that wasn't the point anyway.

I wouldn't for anything change your engineer's outlook on life. However, you're being a literalist and I was speaking in terms....not at all literal. I know we're not birds. Or maybe you're just screwing with me and I have no sense of humor. Wevus made the good points. I simply saw parallels between animal behavior and human behavior and wanted to use it in a way to add dimension to an interesting hypothesis.  

Let's not beat this dead horse anymore. Unless....did anyone ever really beat dead horses? Did they actually beat them or did they kick them? Does it really matter since the horse is already dead? Is beating a dead horse acceptable in Oklahoma? I better hit Wiki quick...

[waterboy]

Guido: The country that you were born in limits abortion and encourages family growth through tax deductions. A country whose citizens subsidized the education that provided the doctors who contributed to the foundation that built the hospital where you were born. Taxpayers who provided incentives through their government to encourage the development of affordable housing through tax deductions and the GI bill after WWII. A country whose philanthropists and taxpayers provided money to build parks, libraries, public pools, gymnasiums and municipal buildings that you benefited from growing up. Scholarships were provided by the State, the Federal Government and non-profits to make sure your education was good and not dependent upon the wealth and status of your parents. Roads built by taxpayers, repaired by taxpayers, maintained by taxpayers so that you could drive your cheap car or metro bus, on cheap gas which was subsidized by government through depletion allowances, on roads paved by lowly paid workers whose bodies long ago gave out on them so you could get to school on time and learn the fundamentals of life from tax paid teachers, who often provided supplies from their own income,  in a safe environment watched over by tax paid police officers who moonlighted doing security work to keep their households intact since the taxpayers didn't care to adequately fund either of them. Your parents. Your co-workers. Your employers. The migrant farm workers who picked your food. The meat workers who worked in Omaha for practically nothing because they were illegal and were at the mercy of others. The labor unions who fought for dental care which eventually became part of your corporate package of health benefits. They all wonder why you deny them now.

Your country invested both citizen monies in research and development of technologies that provide jobs for people who never paid a dime in taxes, both rich and poor. Your country gave you a job at OUR expense in the National Guard so you could pay us back sometime. We felt it a good investment as our tax dollars are useless if we can't defend ourselves.

I could go on, especially enumerating how your color, your sex and your sexual preference gave you even more advantage, but its clear you don't consider it "lucky" for you to have been born in a country that provided all this for you. Instead, you seem to think you and your wife did it all on your own.

[guido911]

The country that you were born in limits abortion and encourages family growth through tax deductions. A country whose citizens subsidized the education that provided the doctors who contributed to the foundation that built the hospital where you were born. Taxpayers who provided incentives through their government to encourage the development of affordable housing through tax deductions and the GI bill after WWII. A country whose philanthropists and taxpayers provided money to build parks, libraries, public pools, gymnasiums and municipal buildings that you benefited from growing up. Scholarships were provided by the State, the Federal Government and non-profits to make sure your education was good and not dependent upon the wealth and status of your parents. Roads built by taxpayers, repaired by taxpayers, maintained by taxpayers so that you could drive your cheap car or metro bus, on cheap gas which was subsidized by government through depletion allowances, on roads paved by lowly paid workers whose bodies long ago gave out on them so you could get to school on time and learn the fundamentals of life from tax paid teachers, who often provided supplies from their own income,  in a safe environment watched over by tax paid police officers who moonlighted doing security work to keep their households intact since the taxpayers didn't care to adequately fund either of them. Your parents. Your co-workers. Your employers. The migrant farm workers who picked your food. The meat workers who worked in Omaha for practically nothing because they were illegal and were at the mercy of others. The labor unions who fought for dental care which eventually became part of your corporate package of health benefits. They all wonder why you deny them now.

Your country invested both citizen monies in research and development of technologies that provide jobs for people who never paid a dime in taxes, both rich and poor. Your country gave you a job at OUR expense in the National Guard so you could pay us back sometime. We felt it a good investment as our tax dollars are useless if we can't defend ourselves.

I could go on, but its clear you don't consider it "lucky" for you to have been born in a country that provided all this for you. Instead, you seem to think you and your wife did it all on your own.

You forgot the justice I help get to victims of injustice and the untold numbers of lives my wife has saved. It's called living in a society.  As for military service, I guess it was an oversight that you left out the part about protecting the likes of you from foreign aggression at the risk of losing my life. Jeez, you and Nate make it seem like my wife and I do not contribute to this country.

Just as I said above, EVERYONE in this country receives everything you discussed. Hence, by your definition, everyone is "lucky". What distinguishes those that achieve from those that don't on your same playing field is commitment--not luck.

I am getting very bored with having to apparently feel that my wife and I's achievements are not a result of hard work and sacrifice but rather because I was born here. It's like if we were born in Japan or some other country we wouldn't have succeeded. What a galling and insulting supposition based entirely on speculation.

[waterboy]

You forgot the justice I help get to victims of injustice and the untold numbers of lives my wife has saved. It's called living in a society.  As for military service, I guess it was an oversight that you left out the part about protecting the likes of you from foreign aggression at the risk of losing my life. Jeez, you and Nate make it seem like my wife and I do not contribute to this country.

Just as I said above, EVERYONE in this country receives everything you discussed. Hence, by your definition, everyone is "lucky". What distinguishes those that achieve from those that don't on your same playing field is commitment--not luck.

I am getting very bored with having to apparently feel that my wife and I's achievements are not a result of hard work and sacrifice but rather because I was born here. It's like if we were born in Japan or some other country we wouldn't have succeeded. What a galling and insulting supposition based entirely on speculation.

Be assured, your responses are just as boring and just as insulting to those of us who paid your way and who find it incredible that you think we are without commitment because we didn't follow your path to riches and glory.

Do you realize you just slammed most of your fellow posters regardless of their education, intelligence or position in life simply because they did not decide to be a professional, a college grad, a masters owner or to aggressively pursue wealth? Its as though you don't even read these posts or understand them. I gave you credit for serving and protecting the public but you didn't even see it. I learned a long time ago that education and job have nothing to do with being smart or making money. The dumbest guys I ever knew were great socializers who cruised through their youth, made tons of money and spent it on drugs and women. The smartest ones with the most insights to real life are poorly paid, well educated, social workers.

NOT everyone in this country receives all that I listed. They are available under the correct circumstances to everyone. Those circumstances might include, among a long list of others; as long as you're born in the right area, to the right parents, in the correct religion,without an identifiable unpopular heritage, with the correct sexual identification, get into the right schools, are not ignored or molested as a child, are not traumatized by any number of tragedies around you, are fed correctly, are a blue eyed, blond haired male, are a large male or one who learns to cope with being one armed, short, bullied, red headed or fat. Yes, you're a hard working committed lawyer who has some ability to make a payback, we're proud of you. But you were not only lucky, we provided much of that luck and you want all the credit.

[guido911]

^^^^
The only people I am slamming in this forum are those who insist that "luck" had anything to do with my or anyone else's success. Period. And another thing, who anointed you with right to speak in such a speculative way for anyone in this forum? Maybe you are a mind reader.

One more thing, if you believe I joined the National Guard, after serving active duty for numerous years, because I was out to make a buck off the backs of the taxpayer, you are disgustingly naive.

Finally, in your last sentence you apparently are taking credit for my "luck". Please tell me exactly what you have done to provide me my luck. After all, I have only been in this area for about ten years and I do not even recall meeting you. And for me taking all the credit? I owe my opportunities to the grace of God and hard work. I give you zero credit.

[nathanm]

By your thinking everyone that managed to survive birth in this country is "lucky". As such, the playing field is equal for all, the "fortunate" and "less fortunate". So now what's your point about "luck". Oh, and I consider surviving birth as a blessing from God and not luck.

Here, as opposed to Nigeria, genius. And you have one of the worst reading comprehension problems I have ever seen in my life. You continue to insist that I and others have said things we have not said, and in fact took great care to specifically state we were not saying.

[waterboy]

Here, as opposed to Nigeria, genius. And you have one of the worst reading comprehension problems I have ever seen in my life. You continue to insist that I and others have said things we have not said, and in fact took great care to specifically state we were not saying.

No use me repeating what you have succinctly stated. ^

Does anyone remember the poster that went something like this: "Success is what happens when luck and preparedness meet"?

[custosnox]

As for military service, I guess it was an oversight that you left out the part about protecting the likes of you from foreign aggression at the risk of losing my life.

I've got to ask, exactly what foreign aggression did you protect all of us lesser folks from?  The last time that there was a foreign aggressor that the military was able to defend against was WWII.  Fighting political conflicts, or being present in a location as a political ploy does not count as defedning against a foreign aggressor.  Don't get me wrong, I appreciate service people, because they do exist to protect this country, they just do not choose what battles they get to fight.  That being said, it gets really old how you try to brow beat everyone in here with the fact that you served.  That does not make you better than everyone.  I know this is off thread, but I just had to say something about it because all you do is make me start to resent those that serve because they might act like you about it.

[RecycleMichael]

The only people I am slamming in this forum are those who insist that "luck" had anything to do with my or anyone else's success. Period.

I think that hard work is by far the main reason for your (and my) success in life. You paid your dues, stayed in school, and took risks. That makes success achievable.

But luck has something to do with it. A very little something, but still something. In my case, I avoided some of the problems and bad luck that my some of my friends had. I was lucky enough to meet the right woman at the right time. I was lucky to have healthy children.

Good luck and bad luck happen every day in our lives. It mostly goes unnoticed but has some tiny effect for our successes or failures. Especially if matched with hard work.

[custosnox]

I think that hard work is by far the main reason for your (and my) success in life. You paid your dues, stayed in school, and took risks. That makes success achievable.

But luck has something to do with it. A very little something, but still something. In my case, I avoided some of the problems and bad luck that my some of my friends had. I was lucky enough to meet the right woman at the right time. I was lucky to have healthy children.

Good luck and bad luck happen every day in our lives. It mostly goes unnoticed but has some tiny effect for our successes or failures. Especially if matched with hard work.

Of course some can work hard and still get held back because of chance (luck emplies that some ritual or act can change it, at least to me).  But those that get ahead by chance alone are about equal to the number of those who chance keeps them down no matter how hard they work to get ahead.  By and large it is a mixture of hard work, and being in the right place at the right time.  Otherwise your just spinning your wheels without traction.