We're #3, We're #3........... in running out of smart people.

[RecycleMichael]

What's the guarantee, or better yet a proven corollary that more school spending makes for better outcomes?

There is no guarantee.

What is the guarantee that the millions we started spend on airport security makes us any safer? What is the guarantee that if we build a park people will use it?

I don't know if there is a proven corollary...I do know that cutting spending is resulting in less prepared students.

Read the opening post. We are in trouble and the answer seems to be cut spending.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[swake]

There is no guarantee.

What is the guarantee that the millions we started spend on airport security makes us any safer? What is the guarantee that if we build a park people will use it?

I don't know if there is a proven corollary...I do know that cutting spending is resulting in less prepared students.

Read the opening post. We are in trouble and the answer seems to be cut spending.

Stupid is as stupid does.

We would be the example of low spending getting bad results. We are the proof to that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

RM and Water,
I think a lot of the backlash on the education bill - other than the extreme right wing running the show in OKC - is due to past efforts, like 1017 and the "lottery for education".  All previous efforts have been corrupted by "you-know-who" and this one would likely be also.  This bill might have made it better by defining a fixed position on funding.  (Would be nice to know if that would have helped.)  

But when you have a state that makes noise about education/jobs/etc that elects people who actually cut the tax rate from 5.75 to 5.25 and brag about it with the problems this state has, well it ain't ever gonna get any better.  And now the governor (she doesn't rate a capital G) is ranting and raving about making things more attractive to business to get more jobs.  Well, the education system for that just isn't there.  And won't be for a long, long time.  And lower taxes and minimum wage pay rates and "right to work" and giving the store away hasn't helped.  We have a lot of great companies here and hopefully more will come, but this ain't EVER gonna be like Texas.  (At least, I hope not.)

AND she is ranting/raving about cutting tax rate some more!!  This state is truly insane.  In all senses of the word.

And the "problems" I am talking about - the big three anyway, in no particular order - are;
Roads
Education
Prisons

Would also be nice to fix the county commissioner system to reduce some of that graft/corruption, but I know that will never happen either.

[RecycleMichael]

Sixth worse state in decline in reading scores...Yet we think everything is OK.

It reminds me of a Bobcat Goldthwait routine.

Bobcat says when he was young he took a standardized test and the teacher told him he tested in the sixth percentile. He didn't understand so the teacher explained that if 100 kids took the test, he would be smarter than five of them.

Bobcat replied, "I would find those five kids and I would become their leader".

[swake]

Sixth worse state in decline in reading scores...Yet we think everything is OK.

It reminds me of a Bobcat Goldthwait routine.

Bobcat says when he was young he took a standardized test and the teacher told him he tested in the sixth percentile. He didn't understand so the teacher explained that if 100 kids took the test, he would be smarter than five of them.

Bobcat replied, "I would find those five kids and I would become their leader".

Well, that explains how the Tea Party was founded.

[Hoss]

Well, that explains how the Tea Party was founded.

Once again, well played.

[waterboy]

RM and Water,
I think a lot of the backlash on the education bill - other than the extreme right wing running the show in OKC - is due to past efforts, like 1017 and the "lottery for education".  All previous efforts have been corrupted by "you-know-who" and this one would likely be also.  This bill might have made it better by defining a fixed position on funding.  (Would be nice to know if that would have helped.)  

I went to the capitol to support 1017 and met with some legislators. They had no particular interest in school funding and flatly told me that there were more pressing needs in the state. You guessed it..."we need to make the state more attractive to business". And that was, what, 10 years ago?

We have had many discussions on this forum about the dismal failure of the "lottery for education". I never supported it. It was a lie, people knew or should have known it was a lie and they pushed it through anyway. Just like the compact for gambling. Those who know the way our legislators work, knew that they would spend little, if any, more real money towards school funding. How depressing to have watched all that unfurl.

It could be worse than Texas. We could be just a mining state like NM, exploiting its people for natural resources, fighting to keep immigrants at bay, drug trafficking manageable, wages low and struggling to be something besides a drive through state. We are different ...right?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Actually, I wasn't disparaging Texas.  They have had a remarkable growth in their economy, probably as big percentage wise, if not bigger, than California.  (And yet, now they are out of water and want some court to make us give them ours.)  And lest the short term lack-of-visionaries say something about California, I am talking about a long term time frame.  80 years.  And today's problems notwithstanding, I bet CA will be back in a few years.  My company is seeing improvement in the business we do there.  Recovery will probably be slower there that most places this time.

Texas still not somewhere I want to live.  Visit the gulf coast from time to time, but not live there.

[waterboy]

I joke about Texas and wouldn't want to live there, but they know how to grow. Part of their growth comes from providing lots of upper level education opportunity just like Cali. And growth brings opportunity. Just too many dang real cowboys for my taste.

But the water fiasco going on in SE OK right now is what I'm seeing as a canary in the mine shaft for Oklahoma. Combine that with a failure to match competing states funding of education, a failure to address financial problems and a fairy tale view of what attracts business to a state and you see a "donor" state environment starting to emerge. We showed our hand when a religious state like ours whored ourselves out to the lottery and gambling because we needed the cash since we were losing many of our big energy players.

When natural resources are more important than human resources things get out of balance. Look at New Mexico. Even Louisiana or Iowa. They have tourism but mostly are not really growing. They are economies seriously skewed towards low education industries, oil, gas, farming and mining. Georgia- car production. Tennessee- coal production. Alaska. There is no need to worry about education when most of your state is dedicated to providing energy, minerals, food or water to stronger states. Instead you concentrate on the bread and butter hot issues that fuel the tea party movement, things like crime, morality, creeping socialism, taxes, immigration, religion, constitutional issues etc. None of that stuff makes a state much money or growth but keeps unscrupulous politicians re-elected. Those politicians then have to turn to selling off natural resources to pay for basic services.

Without a change in strategy, I see Oklahoma as a donor state for natural resources within 20 years. Our most profitable businesses will continue to be prisons and retirement homes. Our greatest export, besides natural gas and water, will continue to be the best educated students our colleges graduate.

[ZYX]

Waterboy, I think you are being a bit extreme. You ramble on about how bad our education system is (I'm not arguing that point), but you provide no solution except to pour more money into a failing system. I think that yes, we need to give more money to our schools, but we must also make our schools more efficient. If we do nothing to reform our schools, a very high percentage of the money we give them will be wasted. We need a better solution than just "give more money."

[we vs us]

Waterboy, I think you are being a bit extreme. You ramble on about how bad our education system is (I'm not arguing that point), but you provide no solution except to pour more money into a failing system. I think that yes, we need to give more money to our schools, but we must also make our schools more efficient. If we do nothing to reform our schools, a very high percentage of the money we give them will be wasted. We need a better solution than just "give more money."

I don't think there's anyone arguing against more efficiency etc; but really, to simply achieve parity with nearby states -- none of whom are shining stars, either -- there's simply nothing else that will do but more money. 

And to suggest that somehow money WON'T help is to completely ignore one of the fundamentals of market economics, which we all know but really want to ignore when it comes to government:  you get what you pay for.

But I also think that, at heart, there's a difference in the way we think.  Waterboy, RM, and I (and I'm sure others) see this as a resource scarcity problem.  My bet is that others see this as a system failure problem.  You think the system is fundamentally flawed and no amount of money will fix those flaws, so why put more money in?  Our side of the coin says simply that, yes, more money WILL help. 

[Breadburner]

It's simple....A lack of parental interest in childrens education at home.....

[TheArtist]

It's simple....A lack of parental interest in childrens education at home.....

Yea we get that.  How do you propose to fix that and how much will that cost?  How do you force people (many who may be children themselves, and or poorly educated, and or without good life skills, etc.) to be good parents?  Heck a high percentage of people in this state can't even take care of their very own health, or eat or drink right.   

[TheArtist]

I don't think there's anyone arguing against more efficiency etc; but really, to simply achieve parity with nearby states -- none of whom are shining stars, either -- there's simply nothing else that will do but more money.  

And to suggest that somehow money WON'T help is to completely ignore one of the fundamentals of market economics, which we all know but really want to ignore when it comes to government:  you get what you pay for.

But I also think that, at heart, there's a difference in the way we think.  Waterboy, RM, and I (and I'm sure others) see this as a resource scarcity problem.  My bet is that others see this as a system failure problem.  You think the system is fundamentally flawed and no amount of money will fix those flaws, so why put more money in?  Our side of the coin says simply that, yes, more money WILL help.  

 Completely wrong.

 It was the bill we were asked to vote on that was terribly flawed.  There wasn't any guarantee that the "flawed system" would actually get any of the  money to do the things that needed to be done.  All of the money could have gone to build fancy olympic sized  swimming pools or repaint the busses, repave the school parking lot, pay the deficit on teachers retirement or healthcare for all we know without the teachers actually getting anything more, the students not seeing any change (in education/scores or anything else) etc.  

All I wanted to know was where in the "flawed system" the money was to go?  Teacher pay raises? More teachers? School supplies? Planting begonias on the schoolground?  Just simply wanted to know where the money was going to go. Was that really too much?  I think it would be irresponsible to ask for anything less.  We do it for local school bonds here. This much will go to update this and that facility, this much will go to new computers, etc.  Why couldn't the state do that rather than ask for a blank check and say "Trust Us"?  We did that recently with the lottery and a lot of people are flat out angry at what happended to that money.  

[Breadburner]

Yea we get that.  How do you propose to fix that and how much will that cost?  How do you force people (many who may be children themselves, and or poorly educated, and or without good life skills, etc.) to be good parents?  Heck a high percentage of people in this state can't even take care of their very own health, or eat or drink right.   

Throw more money at it like the libby's in the thread said to do......