We're #3, We're #3........... in running out of smart people.

[swake]

We pay prison guards with a high school degree and two years experience more than we pay teachers with a bachelor's degree ad the same amount of experience.

That's because teachers unions are evil and public safety unions are good.

[Conan71]

What reality? Posters thinking we are using state funds to build fancy olympic sized swimming pools? Posters thinking we should have classroom sizes of 100 students?

All I have ever said is that the legislature has their funding priorities wrong. Other states make common education funding a priority.

Oklahoma does not. We build prisons. We build state funded colleges in every town with an influential politician.

We pay prison guards with a high school degree and two years experience more than we pay teachers with a bachelor's degree ad the same amount of experience.

We have over 1800 common education schools and over 600 districts which on a per capita basis is higher than Arkansas, Kansas, or Colorado.  How can you honestly say common ed has NOT been a priority with the Oklahoma legislature when you consider all these schools on a per capita basis with peer states?  Essentially, we build more schools per person.

Consolidate a lot of these smaller districts and our spending towards instruction will improve.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Geez, Conan....

Ok, first, teachers salaries for 1990 school year was $17,000 (from the evaluation of 1017 report).  I'm giving you an extra year of that "huge" throwing of money at the issue.  2010 the salary is $29,174.  That is a 1.71 ratio or about 75% more, NOT doubling.

In the meantime, the minimum wage in 1989 was 3.35.  Today it is 7.25.  After the most miserable period of not just lack of pay progress, but very real regression by any metric available.  That ratio gives 2.16, or slightly more than double.

So I guess if you feel that lagging WAY behind the minimum wage as "throwing money" at the problem, ok, we did that.  But if one lives in any semblance of a real world, that is shameful!!  And what we do to teachers in this state is shameful!

[Conan71]

.

We pay prison guards with a high school degree and two years experience more than we pay teachers with a bachelor's degree ad the same amount of experience.

Prison guards have about 240 to 250 work days per year.  Ever been inside a prison?  Not ideal working conditions.  Teachers roughly 180-190.  Teachers also get far better benefits than those of us in the private sector like pension and health insurance.  In order for me to enjoy as good a retirement scenario, I have to do that out of personal savings.  Take all that into account and teachers are paid pretty well.  I suppose we could bring their pay in line with the private sector and take away their pensions and let them save for retirement like the rest of us. 

Look, I'm not hating on teachers, and not picking on your personally.  It's simply not providing an accurate comparison unless you take all these things like actual work days, pension, and paid health insurance into account which are perks their peers don't have.

If you blindly throw more money at education for the sake of throwing money at it, you wind up with more administration and more programs which don't do a thing to better the outcome of the student.


Next...

[Conan71]

Geez, Conan....

Ok, first, teachers salaries for 1990 school year was $17,000 (from the evaluation of 1017 report).  I'm giving you an extra year of that "huge" throwing of money at the issue.  2010 the salary is $29,174.  That is a 1.71 ratio or about 75% more, NOT doubling.

In the meantime, the minimum wage in 1989 was 3.35.  Today it is 7.25.  After the most miserable period of not just lack of pay progress, but very real regression by any metric available.  That ratio gives 2.16, or slightly more than double.

So I guess if you feel that lagging WAY behind the minimum wage as "throwing money" at the problem, ok, we did that.  But if one lives in any semblance of a real world, that is shameful!!  And what we do to teachers in this state is shameful!

You are looking at minimums, not averages on your teacher salary figures.  Point being, has outcome increased with more money spent on education and smaller classrooms?  Answer that simple question, please.

Apparently it has not if we need to throw even more money at it because HB 1017 must not have brought us the desired results.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Full time work is roughly 240 days per year, taking into account holidays, vacation (if get any) and weekends.  Roughly 22 days per month.

Prison guards get overtime.  Teachers don't.

Plus, your private sector is paying you about 2 1/2 times entry level what a teacher makes with same entry level ed.  So, they get a 25% bonus on "time off" (except that doesn't count the evening hours ALL of them spend working) while you get a 250% increase in pay.  Yeah, they are sure working the system with that one....

And the divide deepens every year.

And averages follow along with that.  1989 average was $22,000.  2010 average is $38772.  That is 1.76 ratio.  76% over that time.  Ok, 76% is magnificently greater that 71%...you got me there.

[Red Arrow]

Full time work is roughly 240 days per year, taking into account holidays, vacation (if get any) and weekends.  Roughly 22 days per month.

240 days per year, 22 days per month.  Trying to prove how bad the school system has always been?

240/12 = 20 unless you are using self esteem math in place of the old fashioned kind.

[RecycleMichael]

Consolidate a lot of these smaller districts and our spending towards instruction will improve.

I agree 100%.

There are too many school districts. My sister is a school principal in Florida and they have one school district per county. There is probably millions in savings alone just having less superintendents.

By the way, she used to teach in Oklahoma but left for much more pay.

I don't think that just spending more money will solve all the problems. I just know that not spending what the other state's spend is clearly showing lower test scores.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yeah, there's a discrepancy there, but some places use 22 per month, some use 240, 220, 260, etc.  Depends on holidays, vacation, etc.  One place I worked at was 6 days a week, 52 weeks -- 312 days a year.  Fun, but short term.  That was Harvard MBA math rather than Engineer math.

Now, I think I am around the 238 mark.  But still only have two weeks vacation, so that will go done as the V goes up.

[Red Arrow]

I just know that not spending what the other state's spend is clearly showing lower test scores.

Probably a good guess but you don't know that. 

Where's your competitive spirit?  Are you saying we are incapable of putting out a better product for less cost than our neighbors?

[Red Arrow]

That was Harvard MBA math rather than Engineer math.

That explains a lot right there.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And now for something entirely different...

http://www.liveleak.com/mp53/player.swf?config=http://www.liveleak.com/mp53/player_config.php?token=07b_1284580365%26embed=1


If this doesn't make you just a little bit tense, then you need to have your entire neural system checked out.

[ZYX]

Sorry Conan, but if you think teachers only work when school is in session, you are MAJORLY incorrect. Many teachers go in early and stay late. They take home papers to grade, etc. Teachers work much longer hours than M-F, eight to three, with summers off.

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's what I tried to tell him.  He didn't listen to me, either.


Side note; my legs are still shaky after that video.  Got dizzy and fell out of my chair the entire foot and a half to the ground!!

[Red Arrow]

And now for something entirely different...

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

Again?

(something other than a rabbit appears)

I gotta get a new hat.

(Rocky and Bullwinkle)