We're #3, We're #3........... in running out of smart people.

[Hoss]

You're always so....imaginative. I suppose I should be honored to be a part of one of your fantasies, but alas, I'm straight.

Mental capacity of a 10 year old.  Probably why he and Guido like each so much.

[Conan71]

Last attempt at illustrating why it is Oklahoma teachers are not paid grossly less than their peers in degree and/or profession.  This study takes into account cost of living and actual salary paid by state.  COL is one factor ignored when we start trying to compare what we spend on education with our neighboring states.  A dollar in Oklahoma goes further than in many other states.

If you want to keep inventing your own realities after reading the study, go right ahead.

Again, I think teaching is one of the most important occupations and it should be rewarded as such, especially the best performers.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/articles/mccluskey-high-teacher-pay-oklahoma-june-2009.pdf

[Red Arrow]

You are moving towards what I think are the real issues with public education k-12. Control, cost and quantification.

Anyone choosing a profession strictly for the money will probably have a disappointing career.   The pay rates for any particular profession depend on many things, including supply and demand, training required, and local conditions and union influences.  One reason I did not stay in the Norfolk, VA area after I got out of the Navy is that salaries were often depressed by retired military personnel willing to work for lower salaries because they had their check of the month from the military.

Evaluating a worker's performance objectively often depends on the job. It's not too hard to evaluate a production line worker.  How many parts did you make?  Did they pass QA?  Do you show up on time, sober, etc.  Most are more difficult.  The scientists on the Manhattan Project would probably be given the equivalent of a "C" using today's evaluation methods.  Their goal was to develop an atomic bomb. They did it.  They met expectations.  Grade = C.   Your example of a bad sales territory is a good example.  In my opinion, a sales person making inroads into a difficult territory deserves consideration for the difficult territory above someone who merely takes orders from an easy territory.  I am not in sales so I don't know if this is ever given any consideration.  Science and engineering are not as slam-dunk as you indicate.  Schedules and costs are frequently a SWAG, often driven by marketing without regard to physics.  My uncle took over a money losing manufacturing facility in El Paso many years ago.  He turned it around in just a few years. Management told him he had to grow by 15%.  He said he could give them 12% but not 15%.  They fired him.  The plant grew by less than 12%.  Assuming you take your car to be serviced/repaired, would you rather have it worked on  by the highest paid senior mechanic or maybe one that was paid less but just got through the factory school on your car.  You are going to pay about $100/hr on the flat rate schedule regardless of which mechanic you get.  

My point is that teachers can be evaluated.  Consideration needs to include the type of students.  Improvements in the students' knowledge and maybe even the students' attitude toward school should be included.  Not all of these things are easily measured. It is not possible to 100% objectively evaluate everything on earth.  That's life. Teaching should not be a popularity contest but teachers that make learning enjoyable while getting the material across are more valuable than one that makes kids hate school even if the test results are the same.  More value, more money.  It might make the drudge work teachers want to improve their methods.  Your reference to college professors is only partly true. In many cases there are required core courses that only a few professors teach.  You don't get a choice.  This may be more true in engineering and sciences than in the liberal arts programs.

I will have to admit to being somewhat inconsistent in my attitudes toward public education funding.   I think that every child in the US is entitled to a certain minimum level of education.  Everyone pays to obtain this level.  It's somewhat socialistic but it's  one program I agree with.  If you want to send your kid to private school and can afford to do so, fine.  You still pay to get everyone's child educated.  It will be cheaper in the long run as the adults that result will be better able to support themselves.  No deductions.  I don't have kids and I still pay.  If a local area wants to support education above and beyond the minimum, including teachers salaries, they should be allowed to do so.  This of course brings cries about equality for less affluent areas.  My only response would be that the minimum level of education should allow the graduates of high school to proceed to the next step.  That might be Junior College, Vo-tech, possibly on loans or grants.  There was an article in today's TW that maybe not everyone needs to go to college.  Make sure that a High School graduate has enough skills to do something with their life.  

Control of the schools includes financing as well as subject matter.  Financing is above.  I'm going to have to be a big government guy concerning subjects.  I believe there should be some minimum standard, perhaps federal, regarding subjects.  The 3 Rs hit the top spot.  Science and religion often appear to conflict.  I think evolution should be taught in public schools. The fact that the theory of Creation exists should also be mentioned.  Not mentioning evolution in private schools is cheating the students of information they will need in the real world.  If you want your kids to be taught Creation, send them to Sunday school.  Your version may be different than someone else's. When they are old enough to make up their mind, they will be able to do so.  The basics of the major religions should be taught as a route to understanding other cultures.  I don't mean to hold Sunday school but rather to present what the "other" religions believe.  How many of us really know what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus.... believe in?  When I was in elementary school (before rocks turned into dirt) we had a classroom Christmas Tree.  Kids brought in decorations from home.  We also had a section where the Jewish kids put up a presentation about Hanukkah.  Teaching about a religion is not the same a teaching it.  Having a private school education does not automatically imply a better education to me.  

[custosnox]

Anyone choosing a profession strictly for the money will probably have a disappointing career.   The pay rates for any particular profession depend on many things, including supply and demand, training required, and local conditions and union influences.  One reason I did not stay in the Norfolk, VA area after I got out of the Navy is that salaries were often depressed by retired military personnel willing to work for lower salaries because they had their check of the month from the military.

Evaluating a worker’s performance objectively often depends on the job. It’s not too hard to evaluate a production line worker.  How many parts did you make?  Did they pass QA?  Do you show up on time, sober, etc.  Most are more difficult.  The scientists on the Manhattan Project would probably be given the equivalent of a “C” using today’s evaluation methods.  Their goal was to develop an atomic bomb. They did it.  They met expectations.  Grade = C.   Your example of a bad sales territory is a good example.  In my opinion, a sales person making inroads into a difficult territory deserves consideration for the difficult territory above someone who merely takes orders from an easy territory.  I am not in sales so I don’t know if this is ever given any consideration.  Science and engineering are not as slam-dunk as you indicate.  Schedules and costs are frequently a SWAG, often driven by marketing without regard to physics.  My uncle took over a money losing manufacturing facility in El Paso many years ago.  He turned it around in just a few years. Management told him he had to grow by 15%.  He said he could give them 12% but not 15%.  They fired him.  The plant grew by less than 12%.  Assuming you take your car to be serviced/repaired, would you rather have it worked on  by the highest paid senior mechanic or maybe one that was paid less but just got through the factory school on your car.  You are going to pay about $100/hr on the flat rate schedule regardless of which mechanic you get. 

My point is that teachers can be evaluated.  Consideration needs to include the type of students.  Improvements in the students’ knowledge and maybe even the students’ attitude toward school should be included.  Not all of these things are easily measured. It is not possible to 100% objectively evaluate everything on earth.  That’s life. Teaching should not be a popularity contest but teachers that make learning enjoyable while getting the material across are more valuable than one that makes kids hate school even if the test results are the same.  More value, more money.  It might make the drudge work teachers want to improve their methods.  Your reference to college professors is only partly true. In many cases there are required core courses that only a few professors teach.  You don’t get a choice.  This may be more true in engineering and sciences than in the liberal arts programs.

I will have to admit to being somewhat inconsistent in my attitudes toward public education funding.   I think that every child in the US is entitled to a certain minimum level of education.  Everyone pays to obtain this level.  It’s somewhat socialistic but it’s  one program I agree with.  If you want to send your kid to private school and can afford to do so, fine.  You still pay to get everyone’s child educated.  It will be cheaper in the long run as the adults that result will be better able to support themselves.  No deductions.  I don’t have kids and I still pay.  If a local area wants to support education above and beyond the minimum, including teachers salaries, they should be allowed to do so.  This of course brings cries about equality for less affluent areas.  My only response would be that the minimum level of education should allow the graduates of high school to proceed to the next step.  That might be Junior College, Vo-tech, possibly on loans or grants.  There was an article in today’s TW that maybe not everyone needs to go to college.  Make sure that a High School graduate has enough skills to do something with their life. 

Control of the schools includes financing as well as subject matter.  Financing is above.  I’m going to have to be a big government guy concerning subjects.  I believe there should be some minimum standard, perhaps federal, regarding subjects.  The 3 Rs hit the top spot.  Science and religion often appear to conflict.  I think evolution should be taught in public schools. The fact that the theory of Creation exists should also be mentioned.  Not mentioning evolution in private schools is cheating the students of information they will need in the real world.  If you want your kids to be taught Creation, send them to Sunday school.  Your version may be different than someone else’s. When they are old enough to make up their mind, they will be able to do so.  The basics of the major religions should be taught as a route to understanding other cultures.  I don’t mean to hold Sunday school but rather to present what the “other” religions believe.  How many of us really know what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus.... believe in?  When I was in elementary school (before rocks turned into dirt) we had a classroom Christmas Tree.  Kids brought in decorations from home.  We also had a section where the Jewish kids put up a presentation about Hanukkah.  Teaching about a religion is not the same a teaching it.  Having a private school education does not automatically imply a better education to me. 

I dont' think evaluating teachers need be that complicated.  They have more than one student, and patterns will appear after a year or two.  Start looking for things like more than normal low grades in the class, disipline problems, attandance.  This would show in reverse for signs of a better teacher.  While children differ on a case to case, as groups they tend to be more uniform.  Red flags do appear. 

[waterboy]

Its dead horse beating time again. I think we've all laid out our positions and spent some gray matter defending them. At least we're all more enlightened now than we were.

[RecycleMichael]

I think fair teacher evaluations are incredibly complex.

The teachers in public schools get what they are given. At one school the kids may have many other challenges in their lives and have come from poor feeder programs. Those teachers who inherit kids who are failing have a much more difficult task that the teacher at a school that always has high test scores.

How do you rate a teacher with also weighing all the other factors in?

If you tie pay too directly to performance, every teacher will just want to be in the best schools.

I believe in performance pay, but to do it fairly ain't so simple.

[Red Arrow]

I think fair teacher evaluations are incredibly complex.

The teachers in public schools get what they are given. At one school the kids may have many other challenges in their lives and have come from poor feeder programs. Those teachers who inherit kids who are failing have a much more difficult task that the teacher at a school that always has high test scores.

How do you rate a teacher with also weighing all the other factors in?

If you tie pay too directly to performance, every teacher will just want to be in the best schools.

I believe in performance pay, but to do it fairly ain't so simple.

I have no problem with the concept of "hazardous duty" or "combat" pay to entice teachers to lower performing schools.  How are you going to keep the low performing teachers out without some kind of evaluation?  Are you saying all teachers are created equal and no evaluation is required? 

[RecycleMichael]

Of course not.

My experiences with my two children's teachers have varied greatly.

The baselines are being set by continual testing. Soon we will have composite scores that will allow individual teachers to be graded better.

I also know that sometimes kids do poorly on tests because of other things outside a teacher's influence.

I waited to have children till later in life. It made me a better parent and provider for my children. I also have a point in my career that allows me to spend some quality time working with my kids and their homework. When I was twenty, I was working two jobs and driving an unsafe car.

Some schools have lots of parents like me and of course, in general, those kids do better on testing days. In my daughter's class, one child has missed many days this past two months and another has parents who just are getting divorced. Testing days are coming up quick. Will those kids and their scores count against the teacher? Yes.

Good teachers can be rewarded and bad teachers fired. It just takes a little more than just giving bonuses to the teachers after tests are graded.

[Red Arrow]

Good teachers can be rewarded and bad teachers fired. It just takes a little more than just giving bonuses to the teachers after tests are graded.

I agree.

[heironymouspasparagus]

waterboy and hoss;

It's breadburner.  Bringing his oral sex fantasies into this discussion.  Always in his race to the bottom.

Would like to know where the bread is burned, so could avoid it....worry about food contamination in public food providers as it is.

[Conan71]

I think fair teacher evaluations are incredibly complex.

The teachers in public schools get what they are given. At one school the kids may have many other challenges in their lives and have come from poor feeder programs. Those teachers who inherit kids who are failing have a much more difficult task that the teacher at a school that always has high test scores.

How do you rate a teacher with also weighing all the other factors in?

If you tie pay too directly to performance, every teacher will just want to be in the best schools.

I believe in performance pay, but to do it fairly ain't so simple.

The yardstick in determining how much we need to spend on education, or that we need to spend more on education is standardized test results. Or at least, that's what's cited when we talk about whether or not our schools are successful.  It's really not that hard to come up with a fair subjective yard stick for performance.  You simply have to create an equivalency factor for "at-risk" schools and offer higher pay for those schools if we are in agreement higher pay might attract the best talent to teach our kids. 

Let's face it though, the best teachers didn't get into teaching for money in the first place, they did it because of very likely a life-long ambition to help others.   Please don't misconstrue that to say they should not be well compensated because that's not at all where I'm coming from.

There are many ways to judge performance fairly. 

[Breadburner]

You're always so....imaginative. I suppose I should be honored to be a part of one of your fantasies, but alas, I'm straight.

You brought my zipper into the conversation.....It must have been on your mind....

[waterboy]

You brought my zipper into the conversation.....It must have been on your mind....

Your quotes and pics often include that area of anatomy. I figured that was a key determinant in your viewpoints. I was just taking a dig at you for fun. Knew you couldn't pass it up.

[Conan71]

Your quotes and pics often include that area of anatomy. I figured that was a key determinant in your viewpoints. I was just taking a dig at you for fun. Knew you couldn't pass it up.

Just don't let him near your buns

[Breadburner]

Just don't let him near your buns

I like to call them warm pillows.....