Fallin cuts top tax rate, says state revenue growth is enough.

[Red Arrow]

Too late for those sentiments. SCOTUS has already ruled that corporations are people and should have unlimited ability to support issues/candidates of their choice even if their employees don't agree. Of course you could always quit. If they are people, then Unions should be too.

I agree that if corporations have that right, so should unions.  I believe unions have had that right for eons.  Adding corporations was allowing "equal time".

[Red Arrow]

Democrats in the depression were the friend of the farmer and laborer in Ok. We were founded as a progressive state (at the time). So many folks continuued their support of the party even when it stopped being much like them. The 1964 election was the last time a Democratic presidential candidate carried OK. That was the peak of the depression babies anti-business attitudes here. The economy surged, people no longer felt they needed the party to defend them and they switched to moral/religious issues as the base of their politics.

Then we had to spend a couple of decades cleaning up the corruption, incompetence and ignorance that having one party represent us so long had delivered to us.

I understand the populist history.  LBJ may have been the last President that carried OK but local elections continued for a long time. Gerrymandering was generally rigged in the favor of Democratic candidate up through Jim Jones and Mike Synar.  No, I am not claiming that Republicans do not participate in gerrymandering.

[Red Arrow]

I would object as well. Iand, I never eat pickles on the weekend.

Its nice outside and we both have yardwork to do. I'm mixing mine with a vodka and strawberry laced limeade. Ran out of beer.

I did all the yardwork I am going to do yesterday.  We had a limb break on a tree in front of the house, about a 10"er.  I grabbed a couple of my suburban necessities, a chainsaw and ladder, and chopped it the rest of the way off the tree and into manageable pieces.  Then I stacked the stuff next to the fence so when we get enough accumulated we can call the guy who takes it to the green waste dump.

I'm going flying, no alcohol until that's done.  I bought plenty of beer on Friday.  I'll eat an extra slice of pickle for you.  I hope you like Claussen Deli-Style Kosher Dill Spears.  It's as close as I have found to the pickles in a barrel in the local Deli when I was young.

[Conan71]

Here are two of those states that have no income tax that you think are doing well:

Nevada....12.9% unemployment rate ....#51 ranking...highest unemployment in the nation
Florida....9.9% unemployment rate....#45 ranking
In fact only 2 of the states without income tax (you didn't mention Tennessee #35, Alaska #21, New Hampshire #4) are in the top half of the states rankings of unemployment. Texas is at #25. This according to the Bureau of Labor statistics.

So, it looks like their zero income tax is about as helpful as Oklahoma's Right to Work laws. Which is to say...not.

Kind of hard to draw a real correlation between lack of income tax and high unemployment using Nevada and Florida for examples.  One thing Florida and Nevada are sharing in common is a continued lull in tourism while the national unemployment average is staying at 8%+.  Another problem is they may have no income tax, but real estate in larger metro markets is still higher than it is in, say Tulsa or OKC.  As well, corporations are not real apt to want to relocate to union-heavy states.  Look at Boeing wanting to move or create jobs in South Carolina to avoid being under the thumb of unions.  The Japanese and Korean car makers have all located in right-to-work states as well.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the lack of personal income tax is as much an incentive for business relocation than "quality jobs" type tax breaks, property tax breaks, or huge infrastructure incentives, or no corporate tax being charged for 5-10 years.

[Conan71]

I did all the yardwork I am going to do yesterday.  We had a limb break on a tree in front of the house, about a 10"er.  I grabbed a couple of my suburban necessities, a chainsaw and ladder, and chopped it the rest of the way off the tree and into manageable pieces.  Then I stacked the stuff next to the fence so when we get enough accumulated we can call the guy who takes it to the green waste dump.

I'm going flying, no alcohol until that's done.  I bought plenty of beer on Friday.  I'll eat an extra slice of pickle for you.  I hope you like Claussen Deli-Style Kosher Dill Spears.  It's as close as I have found to the pickles in a barrel in the local Deli when I was young.

I thought you were missing the third suburban necessity, then I read further you were going flying.  Great day for it.  Going to be awful windy tomorrow.

[Hoss]

I thought you were missing the third suburban necessity, then I read further you were going flying.  Great day for it.  Going to be awful windy tomorrow.

I haven't been flying in about four years.  I need to go, but it's financially counter-productive 

[Conan71]

I haven't been flying in about four years.  I need to go, but it's financially counter-productive 

Yeah, I've been throwing money into other $1000 dollar rat holes here and there   Nearing completion on the second renovation of the house I've owned for three years.  I finally have base trim throughout!  There will be a TNF gathering later in the spring, with Marshall's of course.  I've essentially re-designed the interior to make it more conducive to entertaining.

[Red Arrow]

I thought you were missing the third suburban necessity, then I read further you were going flying.  Great day for it.  Going to be awful windy tomorrow.

I also prefer to operate the chain saw before indulging in the third suburban necessity.  I may be cutting on tree limbs but I prefer to keep mine.   

[Red Arrow]

I need to go, but it's financially counter-productive 

True but I had the need to turn some Avgas into noise.

[AquaMan]

Kind of hard to draw a real correlation between lack of income tax and high unemployment using Nevada and Florida for examples.  One thing Florida and Nevada are sharing in common is a continued lull in tourism while the national unemployment average is staying at 8%+.  Another problem is they may have no income tax, but real estate in larger metro markets is still higher than it is in, say Tulsa or OKC.  As well, corporations are not real apt to want to relocate to union-heavy states.  Look at Boeing wanting to move or create jobs in South Carolina to avoid being under the thumb of unions.  The Japanese and Korean car makers have all located in right-to-work states as well.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the lack of personal income tax is as much an incentive for business relocation than "quality jobs" type tax breaks, property tax breaks, or huge infrastructure incentives, or no corporate tax being charged for 5-10 years.

I thought Sauer chose the two worst examples of how zero income tax was working. His remarks symbolized to me how people don't think for themselves and are willing to believe the most outrageous things if it fits into their pre-conceived notions. Red probably thought the same thing about my remarks!Perhaps I unloaded a shotgun on a puppy.

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote. I am not too sure about your thought that business is afraid of unions. They simply are attracted to the lowest cost these days rather than the best solution. The Japanese manufacturers are better at integrating labor with decisionmaking. I doubt their workers would find much use for unions.

You have to ask yourself if Toyota would have considered OK even with RTW and a zero income tax. I think we have something about us that repels those kinds of companies.

[Conan71]

I thought Sauer chose the two worst examples of how zero income tax was working. His remarks symbolized to me how people don't think for themselves and are willing to believe the most outrageous things if it fits into their pre-conceived notions. Red probably thought the same thing about my remarks!Perhaps I unloaded a shotgun on a puppy.

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote. I am not too sure about your thought that business is afraid of unions. They simply are attracted to the lowest cost these days rather than the best solution. The Japanese manufacturers are better at integrating labor with decisionmaking. I doubt their workers would find much use for unions.

You have to ask yourself if Toyota would have considered OK even with RTW and a zero income tax. I think we have something about us that repels those kinds of companies.

If anything, I believe the unions create more of a forced separation between labor and management.  It's sort of a tolerated antagonism between the two entities.  I suspect the location of those plants have more to do with all the auto industry suppliers in closer proximity.

All you need to know about business being afraid of unions is contained in jobs flowing to China and Mexico as well as companies looking for non-union havens within the states.  It's no secret that union labor is costlier.  Not simply in payroll costs but administrative costs as well.  With so much price pressure over value anymore, companies are having to find ways to cut costs.  Labor is an easier variable to contain than raw materials, as a corporation can determine how much they want to spend on payroll.  On their raw materials, they have very little input other than buying in larger volumes to get better deals, but that still can't mitigate the price of a pound of metal or gallon of oil.

Having lunch a few months ago with one of our vendors from Pennsylvania, he said they were going to open a new factory in NC or SC to avoid unions.  They have to to remain competitive. One of their chief competitors has their factory in Georgia.  It's non-union and they employ a lot of Dominicans (why they choose Dominicans over Hatians or Martians is beyond me.  Sort of like all the Laotians Nordam was hiring in the 1980's) who will do heavy industrial work for $10-$12 an hour and minimal benefits.  You can't remain the most expensive alternative in a competitive market on principal, nor can you sell your products below cost like GM and Shysler did for so long and expect to remain solvent.

[AquaMan]

Did you ever wonder why Alaska is not a RTW state?

We have gone through Japan, Taiwan, Viet Nam, Mexico, Phillipines, a myriad of other low labor countries and now China. As each economy starts to mature and labor costs rise we move to another one. One of the reasons we can do this is the low cost of transportation. When that starts to disappear it all changes.

I look forward to the time when simple solution companies run out of cheap labor and have to start managing again.

[Conan71]

Did you ever wonder why Alaska is not a RTW state?

We have gone through Japan, Taiwan, Viet Nam, Mexico, Phillipines, a myriad of other low labor countries and now China. As each economy starts to mature and labor costs rise we move to another one. One of the reasons we can do this is the low cost of transportation. When that starts to disappear it all changes.

I look forward to the time when simple solution companies run out of cheap labor and have to start managing again.

No idea, though I never realized they were so heavily unionized until I was looking up the Alaska Pipeline to get an idea of the real jobs to be created by Keystone XL.  Turns out every single pipleliner job was union.

What's your take on why Alaska is not RTW?

India is next.  I suspect we will see the industrialization of parts of Africa after that.  I really don't see your final sentence ever coming to fruition.  As labor moves to another region, it creates a depression elsewhere.  Labor costs or some other incentive must be offered to prevent long-term economic damage.

[AquaMan]

No idea, though I never realized they were so heavily unionized until I was looking up the Alaska Pipeline to get an idea of the real jobs to be created by Keystone XL.  Turns out every single pipleliner job was union.

What's your take on why Alaska is not RTW?

India is next.  I suspect we will see the industrialization of parts of Africa after that.  I really don't see your final sentence ever coming to fruition.  As labor moves to another region, it creates a depression elsewhere.  Labor costs or some other incentive must be offered to prevent long-term economic damage.

Alaska is intriguing. My guess is that much of it is now inhabited by the remains of pipeline workers. They are union people. Add to that the working relationship that the oil industry has with unions and the fact that Alaska returns big chunks of oil money to its citizens each year and you have a big fat happy state. Like I've said before, when labor and management are both well run and power balanced, RTW is not an issue.

I don't think history is with you on your labor analysis. Although we did use a lot of cheap immigrant labor during the industrial revolution to build our country, that labor hasn't always been our fuel. It didn't help us much during the depression, WWII or post WWII. That was all American labor and management. Of course we utilized some untapped labor in women and blacks and with the Marshall plan we were able to re-build foreign labor sources and markets but even through the 50's we were primarily domestic production of goods and services.

Low labor costs are like a street drug to business now. A welfare culture if you will. After generations of depending on it much of business thinks that is the only way to produce. It only works as long as energy is cheap, other countries have inept or corrupt leadership and we have the money and the military to effect those elements. 

Our whole movement towards RTW, lower expenditures on education, proliferation of drugs and financial meltdowns could be perceived as efforts to create a low cost labor source domestically (if you are a conspiratorial sort). That is because, as you note, business sees cheap labor as the solution to all problems and is willing to pursue strategies to enable that vision. Now that we no longer produce at a high rate we are actually becoming so dependent on cheap labor that we are vulnerable to small countries actually extorting us. I foresee more military actions to protect our "drug" channels and the extension of militaristic actions to protect energy sources,not to run our cars but to support the need to transport our low labor goods.

The question to pursue is, how are other countries without this addiction to low labor and cheap energy able to prosper? Scandinavian countries, Germany, France, Japan etc. They have different models and thus use different strategies. That is management.

[Conan71]

Scandanavian and most European countries place a higher priority on value over price, as does Japan.  I believe they also have stricter trade policies.

The United States is in the cheap cost rut.  If you don't believe this, look at the ads for any big box store.  It's all about beating the competition with lower prices, not better value.  Value is secondary any more.  You can buy many consumer goods at or below the price you could buy them for 20 years ago because, even with rising raw material costs, we've lowered the labor cost.  Consumers who demand cheap and expendable goods are every bit as much to blame as corporations.

If you own a corporation, you can hedge your energy and material costs by buying in volume, or simply buying excess when the market is low- like locking in a gas rate or fuel oil rate as far forward as you can or buying steel at $155 a ton rather than $200 a ton.  However, the corporation cannot singularly move the price of those commodities.  They have the biggest amount of leeway on wages.  They can choose to lower or raise wages very easily, or simply decide to become a marketing firm and farm out all manufacturing to an overseas job shop.

It's pretty much what free market competition looks like when you tear down all barriers to predatory trade practices.

You can have inflation and plenty of jobs, or keep prices stable and send jobs elsewhere where the standard of living is a whole lot lower or the government is subsidizing their people very heavily.