BOK Center

[we vs us]

Pitting total cost vs two years of operating profits is ridiculous. Venues like the BOK will be in operation for years (hopefully) and will have a couple of decades to make back the initial investment.  Evaluating it at the two-year mark is useful only in establishing what possible revenue might look like.  I'd say that, judging by the quality and frequency of its bookings, the chance of making back the initial investment looks very very good. 

[Conan71]

Someone go to Batesline and point that out.  Or does he even allow dissenting opinions on his blog?

[RecycleMichael]

Someone go to Batesline and point that out.  Or does he even allow dissenting opinions on his blog?

Yes. I have often commented on Michael Bates blog. I argue with his reasoning on many political topics. He always posts them and argue back.

He makes good arguments and does his research. I like arguing with people who are prepared but still wrong.

[Hoss]

Yes. I have often commented on Michael Bates blog. I argue with his reasoning on many political topics. He always posts them and argue back.

He makes good arguments and does his research. I like arguing with people who are prepared but still wrong.

How about wrong and unprepared..oh wait, I think you argue with someone like that HERE....

[Conan71]

I like arguing with people who are prepared but still wrong.

I love that!

Michael is very well-researched and he's a real treasure for they city as an amateur historian and factitian/statistician.  In that regard, he's every bit the historian Beryl Ford was, if not better.

However, like so many scientists and engineers, he fails to realize that what makes sense on paper sometimes has no basis in a real world, much like economics.  I'm only sorry he disappeared after the dust up on the BOK/Sprint Center thread.  He complained it seemed like we didn't allow debate on here which is really far from the truth.  I gathered from that, he didn't want to be proven wrong at all cost.  I lost my temper with him slightly by offering to buy his proportional share of the arena and he took it that we didn't like dissention here.

[bmuscotty]

That would be sad considering the league is based out of Tulsa or are they moving the headquarters too?

Maybe. They have only been here for a year (?). Would not effect that many jobs. If i'm not mistaken when the offices moved here it was the AF2 headquarters. They came from Chicago who did not have an AF2 team. Only an AFL team (Chicago Rush).

Since the merge Tulsa is one of very few small market teams left in the league. Most other AF2 teams folded, when to other leagues or moved to greener arenas. 

Talons are off to an 0-3 start, worst in franchise history. Most of the key players from last season are gone. Moved on to bigger cities and more money. Tulsa was not able to keep up. Mostly a rookie team now with hardly and indoor experience. Current ownership does not promote the Talons as it should and has financial interst in other teams as well.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Wow.  This sure got some reaction.  That is nice.

I wasn't making an argument against it (or for it).  I was asking the questions since new information had been posted in the news.  The numbers were copied directly from the front page of the Tulsa World a few weeks ago.  I AM stunned - and it ain't easy to stun me - that someone didn't recognize/remember that.

As for 'additional revenue' - I made allowance for that by showing the times for double and triple the rate.  Double at this point would be a very optimistic estimation of "all the other business brought to town".  (Those arguments are much like the arguments that turnpikes are good because it lets all the rest of the world's travelers buy our roads for us.)

I believe we do get people in from way outside the area.  I don't believe it is even 1/2 let alone 100% of that additional revenue.  That would kind of mean that not many Tulsan's are attending events - only out of towners.  And that ain't happening.  And let me go one step further and define what I mean about "Tulsan's" - the Tulsa metro area.  Out of towners being those that would reasonably be required to spend the night for an event - would not drive home until the next day.  Or fly, or orb, or whatever.

And then the whole idea of infrastructure and government purpose - I am very much a believer in government doing the kind of things that may not make pure economic sense, but greatly enhance the life of the people.  Kind of like the CCC building ALL of our state lodges in the late 30s.  National and state parks.  All of that type of thing that makes like more liveable.

But then I am also NOT one of those who beats the drum about how government should be run like a business.  Like so many with a certain orientation not mentioned in polite company.

And roads are a horrible example of arguing about things not "paying" for themselves.  They literally ARE the things in this country that DO pay, not just for themselves, but for a massively huge piece of the rest of the economy.  Roads in general are the best bargain and the best investment the world has ever seen, starting with the Roman empire.  Roads make us (the US as we know it) possible.  No other single item is more important.  Even the invention of the wheel itself was just a side-show curiosity until the invention of the road.

And in particular, the road in front of my house was priced at a cost of around $1100 when it was built (paved - 1964).  At least that was the number and assessment made at the time.  And I guarantee you the city, county and state have made that back so many times, they should feel ashamed and give me a refund.  Especially considering how badly maintained it has been over the years.

[dbacks fan]

This reply maybe an apples to oranges comparison to some, but I think there is som relevance.

In 1991 the Phoenix Suns wanted a new place for the team, so at that time they built what was then America West Arena. (Comperable to BOk). When it was built, there really wasn't alot downtown. It was built near railyards, near the area where two failed Formula 1 races where held, and just not in the best of places. It opened in '92 and was met with great sucess, and it spurred development, and redevelopment of the area. Four years later, it was brought up to bring MLB to AZ and in particular Phoenix, and they built, at that time and I still call it Bank One Ballpark, which further spurred a change in downtown. An area that in 1990 was a ghost town part of downtown Phoenix has completely changed to a place to go even if there is nothing going on at either facility.

Downtown Tulsa from what I have read over the last few years is going the same direction. And I will admit that whe I moved from Tulsa in '98, downtown closed at about 3 in the afternoon, and anything after 5:30 didn't exist, or you were on the wrong side of the tracks going to something at Cain's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I love the fact that downtown is alive again for the first time since the early 70's, and I as much as many others want it to be a place of a lot of things, hotel, food, drink and entertainment, it has to grow, and change, it will be something.

[dbacks fan]

By The Way, don't start me on parking. I will only say this, you could take half of the surface lots downtown and turn them into 5 story garages, and solve most of the parking issues. And make parking downtown expensive. Parking in some areas of SF are $25 to $35 a day. And you could easily put in ground floor businesses, dry cleaners, food shops, deli's, Kinkos/Fed Ex, etc. (Sorry I've spent too much time in LA and SF and San Diego, and Phoenix.

[Red Arrow]

By The Way, don't start me on parking. I will only say this, you could take half of the surface lots downtown and turn them into 5 story garages, and solve most of the parking issues. And make parking downtown expensive. Parking in some areas of SF are $25 to $35 a day. And you could easily put in ground floor businesses, dry cleaners, food shops, deli's, Kinkos/Fed Ex, etc. (Sorry I've spent too much time in LA and SF and San Diego, and Phoenix.

Don't make parking in Tulsa expensive until there is another way to get there.

[Conan71]

 And I guarantee you the city, county and state have made that back so many times, they should feel ashamed and give me a refund.  Especially considering how badly maintained it has been over the years.

They only give refunds to the RWRE and their cronies 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Conan,
That's the way it has been in the past, but I think it should change!

[Townsend]

The wife and I saw Gaga's "little monsters" all the way on Cherry street this eve.  The BOK is more than just a destination.  It provides business for many venues.

[TheArtist]

  Saw Lady Gaga last night.  WOW what a concert.  Was more like a Broadway musical production.  I have never seen so many complete stage changes, costume changes, etc. during a show like that.  It must have cost a small fortune just to put that production on.  And yes, the people watching was quite fun lol. 

Btw also liked coming out of the BOK and seeing the old Adams Hotel lit up at night.  Had seen them working on it a while back but hadn't been in that part of downtown to notice all the lights at the top.  It looked like a royal crown. I have never seen anything like it in any other city. Just made you wonder what downtown would have looked like in its glory days.  Must have been an incredible sight to behold.   

[Townsend]

  Saw Lady Gaga last night.  WOW what a concert.  Was more like a Broadway musical production.  I have never seen so many complete stage changes, costume changes, etc. during a show like that.  It must have cost a small fortune just to put that production on.  And yes, the people watching was quite fun lol. 

Were you the guy dressed as a hotdog?