9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes

[guido911]

So Nate, is it fair that less than half of us have to pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX and more than half do not? What happened to everyone having skin in the game?

And please explain how the poor/middle class people possession of a small percentage of the wealth is relevant to tax policy. Is it because your idea of tax policy is confiscating from those having a higher percentage of the wealth should be taken and given to other people? Or, is it that since the rich, who apparently are NOT getting richer via innovation, hard work, sacrifice, etc. but by other means, and are not voluntarily giving it to the poor or by providing more/better jobs, higher wages/better benefits for workers, etc., need to have the government level the playing field?  

And heiron, I assume you are at Nate's house given your close connection to his beliefs, my family does not earn millions a year. Not even close to "million" a year. If you read through my history, you will learn that the majority of my current legal work is providing assistance to those who cannot afford to hire a lawyer or need very specific assistance (such as licensing, regulatory matters). I bill my clients far less than many attorneys with the same level of education and experience.  I also have a fairly decent civil rights and appellate practice. Why is it that some people in this forum believe they know me?

edited. Most know in this forum that I come from nothing. NOTHING. I had to struggle to get into law school and pay for it, then later commuting to work more than 200 miles per day for four years while my better half completed her training, and waiting to start a family in my freakin thirties, is where I come from. So back off.

[nathanm]

Most of us pay more as a percentage of our income than Guido for everything.  A burger a McDonalds, a shirt at WalMart, a gallon of gas...

Are you saying these item should be free or at least less expensive for us because we don't make as much as Guido? 
...
Sales taxes should not be added to food, clothing, and prescription drugs. 

Nope, I'm saying that it's good policy for the government to take from each what they can afford. Trying to take blood from a stone just leaves more people in jail and doesn't close the budget deficit. Economists talk about it in terms of marginal utility. If a person making $10,000 a year gets a dollar, it's almost certain it will be spent and start flying around the economy, making things better. If a person making more gets a dollar, it's not likely that entire dollar will be spent.

Moreover, homeless/carless/foodless people make for a really crappy workforce. Give people the tools necessary to lift themselves up and most of them will. This provides a benefit for everyone, not just the people who didn't pay income tax.

I agree with that last sentence.

Guido, it's just as fair as more than half the country having less than 15% of the wealth. If fairness is what you're looking for in this life, you're going to spend the rest of your days bitterly disappointed.

[Red Arrow]

Nope, I'm saying that it's good policy for the government to take from each what they can afford.

The problem with that policy is that ultimately the government gets to set ones standard of living.  I actually believe the rich should pay more $ but at the same percentage.  See my previous post.  You stated that about 30% overall Fed Tax rate would seem fair to you at your income.  Someone with a lesser income might think you need to pay more.  All the percentages are somewhat arbitrary.  Flat rate or graduated, they can be manipulated to get the same tax income to the government. 

Trying to take blood from a stone just leaves more people in jail and doesn't close the budget deficit. Economists talk about it in terms of marginal utility. If a person making $10,000 a year gets a dollar, it's almost certain it will be spent and start flying around the economy, making things better. If a person making more gets a dollar, it's not likely that entire dollar will be spent.

Agreed, no blood from turnips.  See previous post regarding deduction for cost of living, at least part of the cost.  I don't intend for this basic cost of living to be something to aspire to, only for basics.

I guess I should withdraw my money in the credit union savings/CD and sew it into my mattress since it is not doing the economy any good in the credit union.

Moreover, homeless/carless/foodless people make for a really crappy workforce. Give people the tools necessary to lift themselves up and most of them will. This provides a benefit for everyone, not just the people who didn't pay income tax.

I have often said that although I might grumble, I am willing to help someone get an education.  I prefer it to be a loan rather than a grant but grants based on academic merit are OK.  By the way, I lost a "merit scholarship" (partial, but it would have helped) for my first year at college because my dad "made too much money".  What happened to the "merit" part?

I agree with that last sentence.

Guido, it's just as fair as more than half the country having less than 15% of the wealth. If fairness is what you're looking for in this life, you're going to spend the rest of your days bitterly disappointed.

I expect you will be disappointed too if your ultimate goal is to share the wealth equally.  Less lopsided is probably achievable.

[nathanm]

The problem with that policy is that ultimately the government gets to set ones standard of living.  I actually believe the rich should pay more $ but at the same percentage.  See my previous post.  You stated that about 30% overall Fed Tax rate would seem fair to you at your income. 

To be fair to me, the 30% is predicated on present state/local taxes. Were state and local taxes what they were  30 years ago, that number could be higher and still be a reasonable overall tax burden.

That's one of my biggest complaints about Guido's attitude. His "class" has been seeing a steady reduction in its tax rate while those lower on the ladder have been seeing a steady increase at the state and local levels to pay for it, yet he continues to complain in a way that sounds completely ignorant of what the situation really is.

[Conan71]

Most of us pay more as a percentage of our income than Guido for everything.  A burger a McDonalds, a shirt at WalMart, a gallon of gas...

Are you saying these item should be free or at least less expensive for us because we don't make as much as Guido?  Do we need our W2 or 1040 information encoded into our credit and debit cards?  Would the price of an item vary based on our income?  Hi Ms WalMart person.  I'd really like that flat screen TV you have priced at $600. for only $50.  Since I don't make much money it would be too large a percentage of my income if I have to pay $600.

As long as we keep repeating ourselves hoping for a different reception of the information, I'll re-insert my thoughts.

If we are going to continue taxing income, I think it should be a flat percentage with a generous deduction for the cost of living for everyone regardless of their income.

Most of our payroll taxes go to our personal retirement (admittedly somewhat indirectly) and those benefits will be based on our contributions.  Guido is not going to get SS retirement benefits based on his total income, only the portion he paid payroll taxes on.

Sales taxes should not be added to food, clothing, and prescription drugs. 

Thank you Red, someone finally put into words what I've been thinking for years.  That's some darn good logic BTW. 

Granted, every outlay for someone with a lower income than mine is a higher percentage of their total income.  That's simply not my fault and I shouldn't pay more for a box of Kraft Mac & Cheese (not that I'd eat that crap anymore) simply because I can.  As well, I shouldn't be faced with people trying to guilt me into thinking either I make too much or pay too little for every purchase because, based on percentages, I should be obligated to cover the economic shortfalls of my fellow man.

Thanks for making the point.  I'm sure it's already been spun by some true libtard logic before I got to your post. 

[nathanm]

Thanks for making the point.  I'm sure it's already been spun by some true libtard logic before I got to your post. 

Taxes and purchases are a completely different class of things. How's that for libtard logic?

[Conan71]

Taxes and purchases are a completely different class of things. How's that for libtard logic?

Not in the world of class envy they aren't because ostensibly we are purchasing something of value from the government for our contribution of taxes.

[Teatownclown]

Sales taxes should not be added to food, clothing, and prescription drugs. 

Food and clothing, yes. Prescription drugs, no. The government should pay for those.   

[Conan71]

Food and clothing, yes. Prescription drugs, no. The government should pay for those.   

With what?  A Bush era unfunded mandate?

[Teatownclown]

With what?  A Bush era unfunded mandate?

You betcha....(4th qtr...gotta run)

[Red Arrow]

To be fair to me, the 30% is predicated on present state/local taxes. Were state and local taxes what they were  30 years ago, that number could be higher and still be a reasonable overall tax burden.

That's one of my biggest complaints about Guido's attitude. His "class" has been seeing a steady reduction in its tax rate while those lower on the ladder have been seeing a steady increase at the state and local levels to pay for it, yet he continues to complain in a way that sounds completely ignorant of what the situation really is.

Not surprisingly, we disagree on what a fair share is, especially regarding social engineering with the graduated income tax.  I have mixed feelings about many deductions as they help the middle class significantly, probably more than the poor. The obvious example is home mortgage interest deduction.  Phasing it out for the rich would be discrimination/unfair/whatever.

Guido can and probably will speak for himself. 

I believe that the rich have probably contributed more to the state and local taxes than the unrich.  Unless they live like the poor, they are spending a lot more money and paying a lot more sales tax.  Discretionary spending which the poor are incapable of doing will help boost the state sales tax the rich pay as a percentage of their income.  I'll agree it will still be less of a percentage than the poor.  See my previous post about burgers, shirts, and gasoline.  Property taxes are based on size/value and there the rich will again pay more $.  Oklahoma income tax receipts are probably largely not from the poor. 

Income of the lower brackets is up from 30 years ago.  Inflation, which some on TNF have touted as good for the country, has largely negated those gains. Income taxes are such a jumble of standard deductions, personal exemptions, earned income credits, and a bunch of other stuff I don't receive has made it difficult to determine if the tax structure has helped diminish the effects of inflation.

[Red Arrow]

Food and clothing, yes. Prescription drugs, no. The government should pay for those.   

Sale tax on food and clothing are what help make the sales tax burden such a high percentage of the poor's income.  Are you saying to keep sales tax on food and clothing?  The rate would need to go up to even be revenue neutral but it would help shift the burden to the rich.  I thought you would be in favor of that.

Prescription drug prices are a mess. That could be a thread in itself.  The insurance industry and the government have made the list price out of sight so that the discounted price will still make money.  I don't believe the government should pay for run of the mill prescriptions.  Some specialized medicines are so stupidly expensive that there should be a safety net.  Whether is should be the government or private healthcare is obviously a big issue. I call it healthcare rather than health insurance since I believe the two are not the same.  For example, you don't buy a new insurance policy to fix an already wrecked car. Ultimately, the stuff gets paid for. Who pays and when is the issue.  Healthy people will always help pay for the unhealthy.

[Red Arrow]

Taxes and purchases are a completely different class of things. How's that for libtard logic?

One way to die and avoid taxes is to not purchase food and clothing.  Some purchases are necessary and will consume a considerable portion of the lower income earner's wages.  Maybe I should have used a Big Mac in my example rather than a TV.

[nathanm]

Not in the world of class envy they aren't because ostensibly we are purchasing something of value from the government for our contribution of taxes.

If you don't see the difference between something you're required to pay on penalty of incarceration and something you have a choice of purchasing or doing without, there's not much to be discussed.

RA, you might be interested in these graphs. Do note the differing time scales.

[dbacks fan]

I have been following this, and I have yet to see anyone bare their donkey and show some real world numbers as to what the effects are in the real world. I work for a city gov't, and have for just over ten years. My starting salary sans benifits and deductions when I started in Febuary of '01 was $36,000.00 per year. Through merit and cost of living increases I made it to a gross of $57,000.00 in six years. To get to that point, my last increases were a 3% merit and 2% COLA in '06, and a 2% COLA in '07. I have not had any increase in pay for four years, yet my contributions to retirement, cost of insurance, and tax changes have only kept me at the same pay that I was getting four years ago. If you take my base pay and subtract pre and post tax deductions 28% of my income is taken. These are the mandatory, involuntary deductions. I am not a union member, the union where I work is SEIU, and don't give me that crap that all gov't employees are so over paid compared to the rest of the world, my position in the private sector is about $10k to $20k higher, and that's another issue.

Also, I don't work in a department where you might see four people standing around watching someone with a shovel, I work in the department when you pay your utility bill on line your credit card info is safe, and I work on the systems that if you dial "911" someone answers your call for help.