Oklahoma and Immigration Law

[Gaspar]

Man, they sound like a bunch of racist haters, don't they?

Nahh!  Ol "Phil" Felipe Calderon says our is raciest. 

[nathanm]

Illegal immigration is already a crime.

Unauthorized border crossing is a crime, even if the person who crossed illegally is a citizen. It's difficult to prosecute without a confession, but it is indeed a crime. It is not presently a crime to be present in or work in the US without authorization. Not being a crime doesn't mean there are no penalties, however. Being present without authorization can result in a 10 year (or even lifetime) bar from entry, plus you usually get incarcerated for a few months to a few years before you actually get deported. (ICE is slow, even when there's no need of a hearing before an ALJ)

Given that US citizens already are already occasionally mistakenly deported, I'm not so sure it's a great idea to make it even easier to deport people, much less make it a crime to be present in the US without authorization.

[jamesrage]

Unauthorized border crossing is a crime, even if the person who crossed illegally is a citizen. It's difficult to prosecute without a confession, but it is indeed a crime. It is not presently a crime to be present in or work in the US without authorization. Not being a crime doesn't mean there are no penalties, however. Being present without authorization can result in a 10 year (or even lifetime) bar from entry, plus you usually get incarcerated for a few months to a few years before you actually get deported. (ICE is slow, even when there's no need of a hearing before an ALJ)

Given that US citizens already are already occasionally mistakenly deported, I'm not so sure it's a great idea to make it even easier to deport people, much less make it a crime to be present in the US without authorization.

It still dispels your notion that the new proposed Oklahoma law would turn the illegals into criminals seeing how under federal law they are already criminals.

[nathanm]

It still dispels your notion that the new proposed Oklahoma law would turn the illegals into criminals seeing how under federal law they are already criminals.

You say that, but they're not. A criminal is someone you can prove committed a crime. You can't prove that any given alien crossed illegally. (Most are actually overstayers, which is not criminal but you couldn't be bothered to look that up) It's also not presently illegal for someone here legally but not eligible to work to take a job. It can get them thrown out, but the penalties for them are purely administrative.

So yes, no matter how much you try to ignore the fact, this law is criminalizing behavior which is not presently criminal.

[heironymouspasparagus]

We will continue to ignore the real solution (if you consider it a problem...depends on priorities).  Our priority in the United States is to invite all the people that will come to do certain jobs for us.  And that invitation is issued by corporate America, with the cute little nod and wink from the Federal government.  Maybe we should actually address the right questions??  And look at real 'solutions'.  (Keeping in mind, certain prices for certain products will go up, or become more scarce.  Remember the old concept of 'supply and demand'??)

[Red Arrow]

We will continue to ignore the real solution (if you consider it a problem...depends on priorities).  Our priority in the United States is to invite all the people that will come to do certain jobs for us.  And that invitation is issued by corporate America, with the cute little nod and wink from the Federal government.  Maybe we should actually address the right questions??  And look at real 'solutions'.  (Keeping in mind, certain prices for certain products will go up, or become more scarce.  Remember the old concept of 'supply and demand'??)

With approximately 9% unemployment, I wonder why we need immigrants.

[guido911]

You say that, but they're not. A criminal is someone you can prove committed a crime. You can't prove that any given alien crossed illegally. (Most are actually overstayers, which is not criminal but you couldn't be bothered to look that up) It's also not presently illegal for someone here legally but not eligible to work to take a job. It can get them thrown out, but the penalties for them are purely administrative.

So yes, no matter how much you try to ignore the fact, this law is criminalizing behavior which is not presently criminal.

Here is a statute that plainly means that being here illegally is not illegal:

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under Title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of--

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with Title 18, or both.

8 U.S.C.A. § 1325. I'll spare you the embarrassment in not posting the numerous statutory penalties relating to illegal immigration in general.

And what do you mean you cannot prove an alien crossed illegally? Isn't that what happens every day at the border? And I am really digging your total stupidity when it comes to the word "illegal"  If you are in the country unlawfully, you are here illegally. And whether you are jailed, or fined, or thrown out, that's the consequence of violating the law.

[Gaspar]

With approximately 9% unemployment, I wonder why we need immigrants.

We have a contingent of lazy who would rather vote for a living than work.  We need illegal labor to take up the slack.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Red,
We don't need illegals.  We need two things - people here who want to do certain jobs (I did a lot of construction/roofing in young years and enjoyed it for the most part) and quit encouraging the circumstances that bring in lots of people we SAY we don't want.  We won't do either.  Because the first statement is wrong - we do need them.  Because the jobs are hard work for lousy pay.

This has been up since last July and it is still there for a reason!  THIS is the PROOF of the LIE of the whole "illegal immigration" argument.  We invite them.  The entire United States has had this opportunity - that THEY offered - to replace them.  And yet, here it is...jobs and free training still available.

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

It really is a simple choice.  Either continue the lies and the hypocrisy of the current system.  Or develop some type of "guest worker" system.  Trying to criminalize people for being here that WE INVITE and want and need is a grotesque mockery of the principals we claim to hold dear to our Republic and our society.  All that stuff they shoved down your throat in school.  (Remember Lady Liberty??)

Or we could go with what I proposed earlier - if we really do want them to leave (we don't!); eliminate the invitation.  Criminalize corporate and management bad behavior.  But that won't happen, as we have seen, since the guidos of the world run the companies and have their buddies write the laws.

[nathanm]

Here is a statute that plainly means that being here illegally is not illegal:
8 U.S.C.A. § 1325. I'll spare you the embarrassment in not posting the numerous statutory penalties relating to illegal immigration in general.

And what do you mean you cannot prove an alien crossed illegally? Isn't that what happens every day at the border? And I am really digging your total stupidity when it comes to the word "illegal"  If you are in the country unlawfully, you are here illegally. And whether you are jailed, or fined, or thrown out, that's the consequence of violating the law.

Wow, you really know how to misrepresent. A great skill for a lawyer, actually.

As I said before, presence in this country is not a crime. The only sanction is administrative. Crossing the border illegally is a crime. Luckily for most 'illegal immigrants' (there's a reason why 'undocumented' is a more accurate statement) they actually enter legally and overstay a visa, which is again not a crime.

It's much easier to work up a froth if you don't know the facts, though!

[Conan71]

Wow, you really know how to misrepresent. A great skill for a lawyer, actually.

As I said before, presence in this country is not a crime. The only sanction is administrative. Crossing the border illegally is a crime. Luckily for most 'illegal immigrants' (there's a reason why 'undocumented' is a more accurate statement) they actually enter legally and overstay a visa, which is again not a crime.

It's much easier to work up a froth if you don't know the facts, though!

You have stats on legal crossers over-staying visas vs. those sneaking in?

[nathanm]

You have stats on legal crossers over-staying visas vs. those sneaking in?

The government does. I don't have the specific numbers handy, but something like 70% of illegal immigrants entered legally and were either denied permanent residency or overstayed a tourist visa. It's why we're such bastards to the Latin American people who want to come visit their family.

Of course, some of this is partly our own fault, in that we make it incredibly difficult to understand the process and officers at ports of entry don't always explain the situation well. I once knew a fellow who thought that advance parole was a visa, and didn't figure it out until he filed for an adjustment of status to become a permanent resident.

[guido911]

Wow, you really know how to misrepresent. A great skill for a lawyer, actually.

As I said before, presence in this country is not a crime. The only sanction is administrative. Crossing the border illegally is a crime. Luckily for most 'illegal immigrants' (there's a reason why 'undocumented' is a more accurate statement) they actually enter legally and overstay a visa, which is again not a crime.

It's much easier to work up a froth if you don't know the facts, though!

For the love of whomever, just shut up Clavin. You don't know everything about everything. And splitting hairs over the word "unlawful", "illegal", and "criminal" and the form of punishment proves exactly what point?

[dbacks fan]

"In fiscal year 2006 there were 1,071,972 arrests of undocumented immigrants in the multi-state border area, according to Customs and Border Protection (CBP). The number had fallen to 705,005 in 2008, and last year's figure was 447,731, CBP data shows. Those figures represent a 58% decrease from 2006 to 2010"

http://www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2011/US/05/11/immigration.arrests.decline/index.html

[nathanm]

For the love of whomever, just shut up Clavin. You don't know everything about everything. And splitting hairs over the word "unlawful", "illegal", and "criminal" and the form of punishment proves exactly what point?

Mmmhmm. The facts disagree, so you attack me personally? Also a good skill for a trial lawyer to have.