Tax Dollars at Work

[we vs us]

I'm amazed more people don't seem to get up in arms about the literally millions of ridiculous ways the government is bilked out of money on an annual basis.  The federal government is one of the dumbest consumers on the planet.

Define "bilked."  That lunchroom study might actually produce actionable data that can drive more intelligent policy. 

You assume that there's one good definition of consumer, when in fact the government is representing multiple interests when it spends its money.  At any given time it's doing something for its citizens, its businesses, its military, other domestic interests, etc.  So while you may not find the lunchroom study to be of value, it could very well be of value to others elsewhere. 

I know you and others feel like there should be some sort of homespun, commonsense way to spend each and every one of our dollars, but I think we're way past simple solutions.  Not that I believe we shouldn't evaluate our expenditures, but almost all of the things that are held up as boondoggles aren't necessarily.  And things like the lunchroom study -- if you stop and think about it -- are logically useful in other contexts. 

And of course, what nathan said:  regardless of what it is, focusing on waste of $2mil is like trying to pick grains of sand off the ground and put them back in the bucket.  And I don't mean that as hyperbole.  Not that we shouldn't focus on waste, but there are much more productive ways to fight that battle rather than argue over the $50k an arts council somewhere provided a mime troop. Let's kill a $2billion fighter jet, or cut the $10s of billions in tax incentives for the oil industry. 

[Red Arrow]

A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

Are you sure?

[carltonplace]

Please see my tacit mimed response

[Red Arrow]

or cut the $10s of billions in tax incentives for the oil industry. 

I wonder how much that will raise the price of petroleum products.

[Red Arrow]

Please see my tacit mimed response

I got the audio (nothing  ) but saw no visual here at work.  If there is a visual, it will have to wait until I get home.

[we vs us]

I wonder how much that will raise the price of petroleum products.

An excellent question.  I actually heard an economist on the radio speculate that, since the price of petroleum is set on a global market, "local" (meaning national) industry tax incentives have a relatively small effect on the price of gas at the pump and instead go straight to the bottom line of the company.

I have to say that, it overall wouldn't be a bad thing for prices to go up and stay up.  That's one of the quickest ways to make so many of the changes that our Forum values happen.  I don't want it to be prohibitively expensive to have a car but I don't want to make each car trip more valuable. 

[Gaspar]

Define "bilked."  That lunchroom study might actually produce actionable data that can drive more intelligent policy. 

Explain?

Would this data lead to an expansion or restriction of choice?



Man must have the right of choice, even to choose wrong, if he shall ever learn to choose right. – Josiah C. Wedgwood

[we vs us]

Explain?

Would this data lead to an expansion or restriction of choice?



Man must have the right of choice, even to choose wrong, if he shall ever learn to choose right. – Josiah C. Wedgwood

Better knowledge leads to better choice-making, wouldn't you agree?  I would think that libertarians would be huge proponents of research and data crunching -- of knowledge and education in general -- so that we could all more intelligently take advantage of our freedoms.

[Gaspar]

Better knowledge leads to better choice-making, wouldn't you agree?  I would think that libertarians would be huge proponents of research and data crunching -- of knowledge and education in general -- so that we could all more intelligently take advantage of our freedoms.

What you said is correct, and I agree with it. but let me sum it up. . . "knowledge is power!" 

The problem is that you didn't answer my question (presumably because you know the answer). 

Based on historical precedent. . .Would this data lead to an expansion or restriction of choice?

[we vs us]

What you said is correct, and I agree with it. but let me sum it up. . . "knowledge is power!" 

The problem is that you didn't answer my question (presumably because you know the answer). 

Based on historical precedent. . .Would this data lead to an expansion or restriction of choice?

It might in fact lead to a restriction of choice.  But that's not an argument for ignorance.

[Townsend]

I wonder how much that will raise the price of petroleum products.

If we doubled their tax incentives you can damned well be sure it would not lower the price of petroleum products.

[we vs us]

On paper and in theory, having every choice at your disposal should result in maximum freedom, but in reality, too many choices is its own form of tyranny.  Your day and your life becomes about making choices and educating yourself about those choices, and it becomes less about living.  Why not outsource some of the ridiculously easy ones?  Ones like:  do I want to have clean drinking water or not?  Do I want my sewage automatically treated?  Do I want this road paved?  

In the case of the school cafeteria study, it might very well come up with an insight that is the key to the childhood obesity epidemic.  It may conclusively find that kids are fat because each one of them individually choose to be fat.  It may conclusively find that using lard in everything is making kids fat.  Maybe it's the sugar, or maybe it's that one vengeful lunch lady who's putting drops of drain cleaner in everyone's vegetable soup.  It may restrict the choice of the kids, but it also may inform the buying habits and preparation guidelines of the school.  

We're not going to agree about the mix of freedom vs regulation in our government, but I guarantee your mix is 60%/40%, while mine is 40%/60%.  We're not arguing Naziism vs Anarchism, we're arguing over 20% of freedom.

[Conan71]

What good does the government gain by studying the caloric intake of school children and how would this information be used other than to restrict freedom of choice in our diets?

That's my libertarian view on it.  And I will repeat to you what I did to Nathan.  Budget cutting is done with a scalpel at all levels, not a chainsaw.  There are no simple large scale solutions.  You said it yourself, there's no simple way to go about it, however flat rate cuts across the board takes the politicizing out of it.

[Conan71]

On paper and in theory, having every choice at your disposal should result in maximum freedom, but in reality, too many choices is its own form of tyranny.  Your day and your life becomes about making choices and educating yourself about those choices, and it becomes less about living.  Why not outsource some of the ridiculously easy ones?  Ones like:  do I want to have clean drinking water or not?  Do I want my sewage automatically treated?  Do I want this road paved?  

In the case of the school cafeteria study, it might very well come up with an insight that is the key to the childhood obesity epidemic.  It may conclusively find that kids are fat because each one of them individually choose to be fat.  It may conclusively find that using lard in everything is making kids fat.  Maybe it's the sugar, or maybe it's that one vengeful lunch lady who's putting drops of drain cleaner in everyone's vegetable soup.  It may restrict the choice of the kids, but it also may inform the buying habits and preparation guidelines of the school.  

We're not going to agree about the mix of freedom vs regulation in our government, but I guarantee your mix is 60%/40%, while mine is 40%/60%.  We're not arguing Naziism vs Anarchism, we're arguing over 20% of freedom.

There's no mystery to the obesity problem: eat less and exercise more. 

There's a childhood obesity problem because America has a general obesity problem.  Kids parents don't take enough time to provide them with the proper nutrition or they don't have good role models at home when it comes to eating right.

I've finally figured out it takes about the same time or less time to make something far healthier at home, often for less money than I would driving to Panda Express or the nearest McDonald's.

I flatly disagree that a government should exist to protect stupid and lazy people from their own ignorance and apathy.

[Townsend]

I flatly disagree that a government should exist to protect stupid and lazy people from their own ignorance and apathy.

Have you seen the Oklahoma legislature?

http://www.oksenate.gov/Senators/Default.aspx?selectedtab=0

http://www.okhouse.gov/Members/Default.aspx