New Fuel Economy Stickers

[Breadburner]

Hydrogen is a joke.....

[Red Arrow]

Seems like they could purchase gas-powered econoboxes which get 30-35 MPG and come up with better savings at a lower acquisition cost.

It's not about the cost.  It's about developing alternate forms of energy.

[Gaspar]

Last I looked, the fuel cells degrade rather quickly. Something about the membranes, but I don't recall specifics. Also, there's not really a great source of carbon-free hydrogen. Presently we get most of it from natural gas. Electrolysis would be fine if we had more nuclear, wind, and solar, but it would probably be more efficient to just charge a battery from a wall plug than it would be to make hydrogen and then use a fuel cell to make electricity by burning it.

The oil and gas companies love it, though, because hydrogen keeps them in the loop.

I don't see the Leaf or Volt being much of a success without being swappable cell vehicles.

The most efficient method would be to establish a standard fuel cell/battery, and then offer it as an exchange at gas stations (much like Blue Rhino with propane tanks).  When your car is running low you just swing into QT and pick up a new cell (or multiple cells depending on your vehicle).  

That way as the cells degrade they can be monitored and replaced by whatever company gets that contract.  I've already anticipated that this is the way the market will go and have been researching the companies gearing up to offer ribbon cells, chemical cells, and battery cells on an exchange basis.

Another advantage of this is due to the speed at which the energy cell market is moving.  As the technology changes it can be incorporated into the existing standard cell format without making the existing vehicles obsolete.  

I also anticipate that most of the companies that will offer this service will be your current energy companies (Exxon, BP) simply changing the format of the energy they already sell.  Electric vehicles simply offer a lower cost, more efficient, and centralized delivery method for fossil fuels.

[carltonplace]

Last I looked, the fuel cells degrade rather quickly. Something about the membranes, but I don't recall specifics. Also, there's not really a great source of carbon-free hydrogen. Presently we get most of it from natural gas. Electrolysis would be fine if we had more nuclear, wind, and solar, but it would probably be more efficient to just charge a battery from a wall plug than it would be to make hydrogen and then use a fuel cell to make electricity by burning it.

The oil and gas companies love it, though, because hydrogen keeps them in the loop.

...and there are no Government subsidies or incentives for hydrogen vehicles like there are for electric, NG and other alternate fuel autos (and few fueling options).

[Conan71]

...and there are no Government subsidies or incentives for hydrogen vehicles like there are for electric, NG and other alternate fuel autos (and few fueling options).

Basically the government picking the winners & losers.

More reading on the issue:

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/

In Norway, they are splitting hydrogen gas and oxygen from water using hydro-electric power, so it's basically a zero emission process as well as using 100% renewable energy for the process.

[nathanm]

I don't see the Leaf or Volt being much of a success without being swappable cell vehicles.

The most efficient method would be to establish a standard fuel cell/battery, and then offer it as an exchange at gas stations (much like Blue Rhino with propane tanks).  When your car is running low you just swing into QT and pick up a new cell (or multiple cells depending on your vehicle).  

That's one way to do it. Thankfully, battery technology is advancing rapidly, at least in the rate of charge department. I was reading about a new chemistry a few months back that can take an 80% charge in a minute or two. The big problem there is transmitting that amount of power at once across the grid. It might take a couple hundred amps at 480 volts to charge in that time.

Lots of factories draw that much, but think of what it'll take to bring that capability to every gas station in the country. It's certainly more efficient than hydrogen electrolysis, though.

[Red Arrow]

In Norway, they are splitting hydrogen gas and oxygen from water using hydro-electric power, so it's basically a zero emission process as well as using 100% renewable energy for the process.

Try to build a new dam/reservoir in this country.

[Red Arrow]

Basically the government picking the winners & losers.

Like corn based ethanol.

[nathanm]

Try to build a new dam/reservoir in this country.

The feds built one just outside Durango within the last couple of years. In Arkansas, a at least two that I know of have been built in the last 15. I think the one in Durango has a secondary hydroelectric use, even.

RA, ethanol is great, but it is indeed ridiculous how corn is subsidized and then corn-based ethanol is subsidized further. Sugar beets and switchgrass both make great ethanol feedstocks.

[Red Arrow]

RA, ethanol is great, but it is indeed ridiculous how corn is subsidized and then corn-based ethanol is subsidized further. Sugar beets and switchgrass both make great ethanol feedstocks.

I believe Brazil is using sugar cane based ethanol with a positive energy balance.  Ethanol has some transportation and corrosion problems.  Any alternative to gasoline will need to be forced on the system much as no-lead was in the 70s.  No one will buy a car using only alternate fuel if there are no fueling stations.  No fueling stations will be available if no one needs the alternate fuel.  The transition will need to take time depending on whether the new fuel is at all compatible with the old fuel.  Only the rich will be able to immediately buy an new alternate fuel car.  The little guy would be hoofing it for quite a while if the transition is quick and incompatible.  Most older cars ran OK on no-lead.  One of the biggest problems was cars with high compression ratios that needed high octane gas.  The early no-lead was only regular grade, and maybe a little less than that.  About that time the octane numbers became the average of research and motor method and added to the confusion.

[nathanm]

You'd be surprised at how many CNG and electric charging stations have popped up. They're by no means universal, but they're around in their strongholds. ONG has several public CNG fueling stations here in Oklahoma. LPG is pretty common in some other countries. In the Dominican Republic, it seems like there are almost as many LPG stations as there are gasoline stations, probably because it's an easy/cheap conversion for a lot of cars.

[Red Arrow]

You'd be surprised at how many CNG and electric charging stations have popped up. They're by no means universal, but they're around in their strongholds. ONG has several public CNG fueling stations here in Oklahoma. LPG is pretty common in some other countries. In the Dominican Republic, it seems like there are almost as many LPG stations as there are gasoline stations, probably because it's an easy/cheap conversion for a lot of cars.

Would you start a trip to either coast without first researching fuel availability for CNG?  I wouldn't.  I would jump in my gasoline fueled car and be reasonably assured that fuel would not be a problem, other than expensive.

[nathanm]

Would you start a trip to either coast without first researching fuel availability for CNG?  I wouldn't.  I would jump in my gasoline fueled car and be reasonably assured that fuel would not be a problem, other than expensive.

There are plenty of stretches of desolate highways out west where you won't find fuel for well over 200 miles, so some planning is necessary even in a gasoline car. My point wasn't that CNG is as widely available as gasoline, it's that it's nearing the point where it's practical for any use, not just around town.

[Red Arrow]

There are plenty of stretches of desolate highways out west where you won't find fuel for well over 200 miles, so some planning is necessary even in a gasoline car.

I do remember being disappointed that there was no gas station at a dot on the map between Las Vegas and Indian Springs on US 95 in 1983.  Fortunately, I had enough gas to get to Indian Springs and there was an open gas station.  I wasn't sure I was going to get there and I didn't think I had enough gas to get back to Vegas.  That dot isn't even on the map now.  The trip from Vegas to Minden (near Carson City) had a whole lot of nothing.  40 miles between towns and 20 miles between intersections to nowhere.  The next time I did that trip, I made sure I filled up in Vegas.

[Conan71]

Try to build a new dam/reservoir in this country.

There's plenty of hydropower as it is now.  A dedicated wind farm could do just the same thing for a zero emission output.

Hell it's all based on reducing CO2 emissions for which the science is at best shaky that it's causing global warming.

I heard an anecdote the other day that Daniel Patrick Moynihan approached President Nixon in 1970 about global warming claiming New York and LA would be underwater in 30 years and the ice caps would be gone.  Let's see that's been 41 years ago and last I checked any climate changes have been minimal and LA and NYC are still quite well above water.