Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center

[Patrick]

When I want to ride the Osage Prairie Trail, I typically park along Riverparks and ride to the trail head at OSU-Tulsa.  If you follow the bike route, it takes you along Archer right in front of the Day Center.  I usually kick the speed up quite a bit as I don't feel comfortable along this stretch of Archer, especially in my cycling gear.  The folks meandering about typically occupy the area right outside the center as well as migrate across Archer to the south side of the street.  Usually lots of yelling, milling about, and generally odd behavior.  I hope the new facility might increase traffic in the area as well as police presence and help solve the loitering issue.

[Red Arrow]

I hope the new facility might increase traffic in the area as well as police presence and help solve the loitering issue.

Or move it somewhere else.

[we vs us]

Was out on calls today and drove through the Brady.  Got some gifts at Glacier Chocolates, did a couple of loops around each block and I could name each thing that was going to go in.  Very encouraging, and the guy who owns Glacier was nearly jumping up and down about what the next year or two will hold.  Drove past the Borden Dairy buffer zone and then was right there in the Correctional District.  Talk about bustling.  People walking in the streets, hanging out, smoking, going into and out of bondsmen offices, etc.  Drove past the warehouse that would be the juvy facility and about 20 homeless(?) folk were sitting on the sidewalk in the shade, and then i saw one of 'em get up and go into the building.  

I have to admit, I'm torn.  I understand that probably the worst thing to border an area like what currently exists is a series of empty and/or derelict warehouses, and I can see -- on paper -- some of Vision2025's arguments making beautiful sense.  I'm very wary, however, of expanding anything that remotely resembles what's there now.  Our development environment seems so perpetually fragile that anything that could remotely tar it with negative PR seems ridiculous to me. It's not so much a NIMBY attitude as "why scotch something that finally has its own momentum?"  I'd vote for the juvy facility to be almost anywhere else in the city than in the Brady.

[Conan71]

Was out on calls today and drove through the Brady.  Got some gifts at Glacier Chocolates, did a couple of loops around each block and I could name each thing that was going to go in.  Very encouraging, and the guy who owns Glacier was nearly jumping up and down about what the next year or two will hold.  Drove past the Borden Dairy buffer zone and then was right there in the Correctional District.  Talk about bustling.  People walking in the streets, hanging out, smoking, going into and out of bondsmen offices, etc.  Drove past the warehouse that would be the juvy facility and about 20 homeless(?) folk were sitting on the sidewalk in the shade, and then i saw one of 'em get up and go into the building.  

I have to admit, I'm torn.  I understand that probably the worst thing to border an area like what currently exists is a series of empty and/or derelict warehouses, and I can see -- on paper -- some of Vision2025's arguments making beautiful sense.  I'm very wary, however, of expanding anything that remotely resembles what's there now.  Our development environment seems so perpetually fragile that anything that could remotely tar it with negative PR seems ridiculous to me. It's not so much a NIMBY attitude as "why scotch something that finally has its own momentum?"  I'd vote for the juvy facility to be almost anywhere else in the city than in the Brady.

But it's not in the Brady.  It's the correctional district.  You said it yourself.  Denver really does create somewhat of a demarcation line between the two.

Most of the people operating businesses in the Brady district with the possible exception of Spaghetti Warehouse, the Brady Theater, Mexicali (can't remember when they opened there), and the original Caz's bar have done so long after the jail and homeless facilities were located in the area.  It's rare I ever see loitering or malingering in the Brady district and I'm not aware of a disproportionate number of trouble calls to the area, other than for drunken bar patrons causing a disturbance.  I've left my truck parked on Main Street overnight before after cutting loose at the Hunt Club and returned the next morning to find it exactly as I left it.

A Steve Kitchell night club does more to hurt an entertainment and commerce district in six months than a juvenile center ever will.

The only way negative PR starts on a center like this is the spreading of misinformation by people who have not bothered to check their facts before yammering on about how bad this would be for the area.

Patrick- I'm far more concerned about riding the trail itself with stray dogs, broken glass, and wandering teens out of sight of most everyone else.  I've seen some weird stuff on that trail: couches, cast off carpet, a burned out lawn tractor, horse poop, etc.

A favorite 30 mile route of mine goes past Owen Park, out west Edison, north to Post Oak Lodge, north on 52nd West, meanders to Sperry then north up Cincinnati Hill and all the way up Cincinnati back to downtown.  Most of those people figure if a middle age white man is crazy enough to bike through the roughest part of north Tulsa in spandex, they are better off not to mess with him.  Believe it or not, north Tulsa drivers seem to be much more wary of and considerate of cyclists.

I feel much safer on Cincinnati than I do the Osage Trail.

[dbacks fan]

A Steve Kitchell night club does more to hurt an entertainment and commerce district in six months than a juvenile center ever will.

Six months? I thought it was more like three.

Conan, you ate at Coopers Town in Phoenix IIRC, did you feel unsafe about the area you were in?

[Conan71]

Six months? I thought it was more like three.

Conan, you ate at Coopers Town in Phoenix IIRC, did you feel unsafe about the area you were in?

Not at all and I believe we parked about two blocks away well after dark.

It's not uncommon in other large cities for a lot of the social services and correctional facilities to be in close proximity, that's what I'm finding somewhat laughable about this being schlocky development.  It's following a model of other cities we seem to want to emulate.

[dbacks fan]

Not at all and I believe we parked about two blocks away well after dark.

It's not uncommon in other large cities for a lot of the social services and correctional facilities to be in close proximity, that's what I'm finding somewhat laughable about this being schlocky development.  It's following a model of other cities we seem to want to emulate.

It's not that much different from when the jail was right next to the library and the CC Arena and across the street from an upscale hotel. I think it's a pretty good model to put those kinds of services together, and they are not that far from the county and city court houses so the transportation cost or lower for the county and for Tulsa, not so much for the outlying areas, but there is always a trade off.

[carltonplace]

I'm with Conan on this (but i get Aqua's point loud and clear). Yes, this is not optimal development in our downtown where we desperately need more retail, housing, people living in and around the core. If we could go back in time and build the clink somewhere else then all of these arguments hold water and the juvy should not go here...but we can't go back in time. The clink is there and the juvy makes sense there and the Brady will continue to grow in spite of it. Demarc it and make it it's own district: "penal place", "jail junction", "correctional corridor" and build some fast food joints or a Fridays and let folks make a day of it.

Downtown can be a destination for lots of reasons: see a concert, go to a festival, go to the library, sight see, get a great meal, bowl, break or bond a loved one out of jail.

Now lets get an urban shopping area in the East End.

[Truman]

Question?

Is the following picture the area tha is being discussed?



If so it would appear that Mister Crawley, in his draft version, placed something other than a juvenile center in the location.

A Police Station. 

Are the Police going to possibly need a New station when "Brickhugger" is done?

Wait... That would be placing a positive in with a bunch of negatives.. That would not make one of three arterials a Real Life Ghetto.

That area could be used for a Justice Corridor. It could attract other development. But you would have to make people feel safe to go there and discourage the type of activity that is prominent now.

[dbacks fan]

Looking at it from a distance, the area is pretty pinched in. You have 244 to the west of it, the tracks to the south, it's behind Avalon Justice to the east and has the jail to the north. Is TCSO still on Denver & 1st?  or is the above drawing also part of the plan?

[LandArchPoke]

I've read this forum for several years and with this I feel like I should start posting since I have recently moved back to Tulsa as well.

This graphic I did might help people understand where this is with relation to the rest of downtown and current developments:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I can't say that I think this is the best solution because I feel like this section of downtown has such great future potential. Once the Correctional Facility actually reaches the end of its life and needs to be replaced this area will be prime for redevelopment. Hopefully by that time we will have constructed a streetcar and maybe even the starter light rail line that has been in several planning documents. By adding on to the mess we have already created then we are just prolonging the expansion of development in downtown.

I do not think the actual construction of this will hamper or even make any of the current developers in downtown even blink. Like others have said a lot of major cities do have these facilities located in downtown/urban areas. I guess what my argument is, in 20-30 years think about how much farther along downtown development will be and how valuable this property and area is. In that time frame I would like to hope that the rest of the Brady District/Greenwood/Blue Dome areas would have filled up with infill development and adaptive reuse of the existing buildings. If we leave this to become just an area for Correctional type facilities that do nothing to build up the neighborhood we have waisted a HUGE amount of potential when it's located so close to the BOk Center, Brady Theater, Cain's, and along TWO identified transit corridors (the black lines with arrows in the image above).

Let's not destroy the potential of this area just because we have already made the mistake. This project won't destory the neighborhood but it certainly does nothing to improve or help it's value development wise. However, instead of just saying let's not build it here we should find a solution and a viable location to locate for this facility.

[carltonplace]

Looking at it from a distance, the area is pretty pinched in. You have 244 to the west of it, the tracks to the south, it's behind Avalon Justice to the east and has the jail to the north.

Yes, its bordered by the MLK EXPWY on the west, I244 on the North, the Elevated train tracks on the south. The east side is currently occupied by Bordens and J3:16 on Carson, and then the Brady District. On Denver it is visually seperated from Down Town and Brady heights by the raised barriers of the RR and I244.

[carltonplace]

Truman and LandArchPoke, welcome to the forum! Great first posts.

[SXSW]

I think it's all in how these civic buildings are designed.  If the design is attractive and urban, even if it's a jail, people won't be as opposed to it and it won't deter future development.  Take Denver's new downtown jail for instance.  It's located across the street from the new courthouse, and next to the highly secure Denver Mint and nearby City Hall and the Colorado State Capitol.  New midrises and lofts continue to go up in the blocks to the south. 

New Denver Jail


New Courthouse (across the street with a plaza in between)


Both are LEED buildings with a green roof (which it appears the Juvy Center will have, at least in the rendering)

[AquaMan]

The points LandArch detail mirror my own. It seems there are two views to the issue.

One is an understanding that this is the continuation of a mistake made when DLM was built. This is not the highest and best use for this land. Being close to the Arena, the Brady and gentrifying neighborhoods, it could have blossomed into a new distinct consumer area. Unfortunately, the area was a victim of bad timing and short sighted vision. It still can blossom, but not if we keep doing the "easy button". The area could be piecemeal re-purposed over the next decade. The Juvy and other corrections operations can pick and choose locations (like closed schools or businesses) throughout the city that are vacant. Vision makes a good point that operations like the Juvy bring with them their own economic multipliers and very little downside.

The other view is that this is an improvement over existing use of the land. It is consistent with current use of the land. It is available, zoned and easily converted to a Juvy center. It can be built in a way that enhances the area and has no effect on current development directly east. It is also close to other county and municipal entities that supposedly would yield some efficiencies.

All good points and frankly going either way isn't a disaster. Lost in all the discussion though is this:

Which viewpoint provides the best option for the longtime success of the Juvenile center and has the corollary benefit of improving its surrounding area?