Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center

[Conan71]

Landarch, great first post.  Thank you for your contribution.  There is one feature in your photo I particularly enjoyed: BOK Center under construction.  At a casual glance, it looks like a prankster put the Roman Coliseum in downtown.

Also looking at the photo, I count somewhere around 18 square blocks of land for potential future development north of the tracks. That's a lot of land and that also makes the assumption that the dairy, bail bonding companies and various smaller warehouse and manufacturing businesses will have closed and/or moved elsewhere in the next 30 years or so.  There's also a good deal of vacant land to the north of the IDL, just ripe for all sorts of development.  We haven't even started talking about East End yet.  IOW- there's plenty of other land within the IDL which may or may not all get redeveloped in the next 20-30 years.  I'd like to think it would, but with economic cycles and suburban development, we may not have the population density and commerce to support a "full" IDL in that timeframe. 

Even with the best sense of development, not everyone will want to live, work, eat, or shop downtown no matter what sort of utopia of urban living we create.  Expansion will continue in the suburbs and other infill projects around the city will happen as well.  I don't really see this as wasted space considering it essentially borders two noisy transportation corridors.  Not exactly ideal for residential property.  I would suspect when the day comes the DL Moss and other buildings are ripe for a tear down and redevelopment, the entire "corrections district" would be platted out for redevelopment much like some of the concepts we saw a few years ago for the East End.

Again, great first post, I hope you are a regular contributor here.

[rdj]

If you look at Landarch's map follow all the pink development west on Archer.  It flows right into Crosby Heights.  However, a corrections & social services district is an abrupt disruption of that flow.

We've already heard that some of our posters are at least mildly uncomfortable riding their bikes through this area while on a exercise ride.  Can you imagine taking your family thru this area on a leisurely ride &/or walk.  Border to border of Crosby Heights to Brady District is about 1/2 mile then another 4-5 blocks to the Blue Dome.  That is closer than Gunboat Park is to the Blue Dome and half of what The Village at Central Park is to the Blue Dome.

This isn't just about what lies within the IDL, it also about what lies just outside.  The raised portion of the IDL aside, why can't we flow downtown into Brady Heights, Crosby Heights, and the Pearl like downtown flows into 18th & Boston & north Maple Ridge?

The potential for the redevelopment of the Crosby Heights neighborhood is great and putting a tourniquet on its access point (Archer) into downtown is a short term solution to a problem that will never go away.

[Conan71]

The IDL itself ruined a smooth transition to points north and west of downtown long ago.  It's not the jail which contributes to the uncomfortable street scene down there, it's people the Salvation Army, John 3:16, and Day Center serve which do.  Pick another area where they could still properly serve their clients and their mission and that would solve it.  

I'm not really certain what sort of development people would envision as being a smooth transition to the residential areas.

Retail/entertainment?
Residential?
High rise office space?

The jail was a redevelopment opportunity which apparently wasn't going to be undertaken by private enterprise anytime soon when it was done.  Look at the immediate surrounding area on Google maps or drive through the area.  Sometimes institutional development can spur additional, good redevelopment in the area.  Just guessing, but that area would either still be full of ramshackle buildings or vacant TDA property had the jail not been built there.  There's such a mixed bag of other existing buildings down there, it would not be near as attractive as East End, Brady or Blue Dome for development.  No matter where they located it within the IDL, we could all say that was redevelopment failure but the reality is city and county correctional facilities need to be convenient to law enforcement and the courts.

It's more or less the same problem the Pearl is having getting off the ground to the east of Peoria.  There's still a lot of commercial and light industrial activity around there with no major investor to simply come in and buy up huge chunks of the area for redevelopment.  The major redevelopment factors thus far have been a city park and flood retention pond, social services (Family & Children's Services) retirement housing, and (I believe) an Indian Health Care facility.  Not exactly urban hipster type facilities, but it makes the area more attractive for that sort of development at some point.

Again, there's still plenty of un and under-developed land around downtown without worrying about this corner of it.  We are also making assumptions that land-owners of fairly well-worn warehouses and manufacturing operations will cede their properties anytime soon around the correctional and social services area.

[rdj]

What would this board's reaction be if a developer announced they were building a sales tax producing building like say, Wal*Mart, on this same land?

[Townsend]

What would this board's reaction be if a developer announced they were building a sales tax producing building like say, Wal*Mart  on this same land?

Depends...multi-level parking, urban design...it'd bring more people DT and help with sales tax rev.

[AquaMan]

The IDL itself ruined a smooth transition to points north and west of downtown long ago.  It's not the jail which contributes to the uncomfortable street scene down there, it's people the Salvation Army, John 3:16, and Day Center serve which do.  Pick another area where they could still properly serve their clients and their mission and that would solve it.  

[This is quite true though the clients will follow where these social services go. Not vice versa. The downtown area was their  favorite haunt because thats where the business people and big churches are. Put the social services somewhere else and they will migrate.]

I'm not really certain what sort of development people would envision as being a smooth transition to the residential areas.

Retail/entertainment?
Residential?
High rise office space?

[Whatever is normally found in gentrifying, developing areas. When Morningside, Tracy Park and original Maple Ridge were starting their gentrification, Cherry Street was ragged. Imagine had they decided to scrape 15th and put in a corrections and social services corridor.]

Speaking of assumptions.

The jail was a redevelopment opportunity which apparently wasn't going to be undertaken by private enterprise anytime soon when it was done.  Look at the immediate surrounding area on Google maps or drive through the area.  Sometimes institutional development can spur additional, good redevelopment in the area.  Just guessing, but that area would either still be full of ramshackle buildings or vacant TDA property had the jail not been built there.  There's such a mixed bag of other existing buildings down there, it would not be near as attractive as East End, Brady or Blue Dome for development.  No matter where they located it within the IDL, we could all say that was redevelopment failure but the reality is city and county correctional facilities need to be convenient to law enforcement and the courts.

No one championed a new jail until it was proffered that it could be privatized. That was the key word of that period. Within a decade of the jail construction look what became available and what started to germinate. The entire plaza to the east of the courthouse is now empty. The Library almost was available. The Blue Dome building which I almost bought at a mere $35k turned attention to that area. That DLM area would have been a nice extension of Brady had the jail moved into the plaza area instead. Its ramshackle buildings were at least intact unlike Blue Dome which got scraped. And it was surrounded by operating consumer businesses (restaurants, donut shop, transmission repair, muffler repair, grocery store, gas stations and a small shopping center). There is demand for such things from Crosbie, Brady and Owen. I think its the mixed bag of properties that helped propel the Bricktown that had the same type area near its downtown.

Nonetheless that's all history. I drove through Crosbie recently looking at its potential. The old school is really cool. A few buildings like the fire station are cool too. The railroad and the IDL are formidable barriers. The Newblock area could be its OKC canal that ties it all together. That's a sleeper. Owen and Brady have better period homes. All three are connected physically but you have to work hard to find those streets. This won't help them thats for sure. May not hurt but not a plus.

I object to having a centralized corrections AND social compound. Its just not healthy to me. Dividing the two entities using newly vacant midtown and suburban properties makes more sense. The Juvy miscreants come from all over town, not downtown. Follow a business model. A downtown location is fine, but you must follow your population if you want to survive.

[Conan71]

Depends...multi-level parking, urban design...it'd bring more people DT and help with sales tax rev.

Agreed.

Or office space, which is essentially what the Juvie facility will look like.

No one championed a new jail until it was proffered that it could be privatized

That's completely untrue.  It was already cramped and dated when my father was a district court judge in the early 1970's and only got worse as time went on.

Follow a business model. A downtown location is fine, but you must follow your population if you want to survive.

Uh, the people who will be using the juvie center have zero choice on a matter of convenience.  By that logic, the Tulsa County Courthouse should be somewhere mid-city as well.

We could just as easily be talking about how the adult detention center, current juvenile facility, and the police maintenance garage all scotched further development west of Brady Heights.  To look at this another way, this could just as easily turn into a development bonanza to the west of downtown with newly vacated property, assuming we could eventually move the police and fire facilities as well as the adult detention center.

You may not care if Wilson Jr. High is used for the juvenile facility, but how would you have felt if Lee Elementary had been closed and it was proposed to be put on that site?

[carltonplace]

The potential for the redevelopment of the Crosby Heights neighborhood is great and putting a tourniquet on its access point (Archer) into downtown is a short term solution to a problem that will never go away.

What's wrong with West 3rd/Charles Page Blvd as a gateway to Crosby?

[carltonplace]

Just have to say we haven't had this lively a development debate since the ball park was proposed.

[rdj]

Just have to say we haven't had this lively a development debate since the ball park was proposed.

I guess I'll consider myself the new instigator.   

[rdj]

What's wrong with West 3rd/Charles Page Blvd as a gateway to Crosby?

I don't see anything wrong with that being a gateway as well.  The issue is when you look at moving west out of downtown you only have two places to do so, Archer & Third St.  In contrast, to move east out of downtown you have five streets.  North and south both have ten or more to exit downtown.

Frankly, this is the exact reason I shied away from buying a home in Owen Park or Crosby Heights.  I felt the lack of access to/from downtown would limit the ability for downtown to bleed in to these areas.  My belief eighteen months ago that downtown will move north rather than west is further affirmed by this development and makes me glad I chose to purchase and renovate in Reservoir Hill.  The movement north will also be helped by a fixed route mass transit line that would run north/south on Boulder from Fairview to Veteran's Park/Riverside.

One thing that could/would help Crosbie Heights is if a light rail stop was placed on Nogales or Olympia.

[AquaMan]

 We're just not communicating.

That's completely untrue.  It was already cramped and dated when my father was a district court judge in the early 1970's and only got worse as time went on.

Who championed a new jail? Its true that it needed expansion but no one made it part of politics til other communities started privatizing their jails and we could use that as incentive to build a new jail. At least that's my memory of it.


Uh, the people who will be using the juvie center have zero choice on a matter of convenience.  By that logic, the Tulsa County Courthouse should be somewhere mid-city as well.

Maybe it should. There are many who feel just that way. With the center of the city now out towards 61st/71st it makes some sense to have satellite centers or move it all together. I am not one of them. I speak of the convenience of the social workers, lawyers, judges, and administrative staff who have to drive into downtown on choked expressways, compete for parking and lack of amenities because the city/county got a good deal on land near the jail. Just being near TU, its law school, its liberal arts program, (for interns) bus systems on 11th/15th/Lewis and Rte 66 momentum by locating at Wilson would be very valuable. Not to mention two gymnasiums, an auditorium, a library, a cafeteria and nearby amenities. One of those amenities being a newly opened hotel.

We could just as easily be talking about how the adult detention center, current juvenile facility, and the police maintenance garage all scotched further development west of Brady Heights.  To look at this another way, this could just as easily turn into a development bonanza to the west of downtown with newly vacated property, assuming we could eventually move the police and fire facilities as well as the adult detention center.

?

You may not care if Wilson Jr. High is used for the juvenile facility, but how would you have felt if Lee Elementary had been closed and it was proposed to be put on that site?

Just fine. Better than tearing it down so infill monkeys could put their walled in McMansions or townhouses there. And certainly better than having it sit empty as an enticement for vagrants, vandals and graffiti. Why would I be concerned about having a police presence, lawyers and professionals taking up residence nearby? The kids are far outnumbered by the staff. Probably no different a characterization than the population of Edison HS.  I prefer that to the dives at 18th & Boston actually.

Are you afraid to have such a facility near your midtown address? Hoover?

[Conan71]

We're just not communicating.

Are you afraid to have such a facility near your midtown address? Hoover?

No, not at all.  As previously mentioned, there's nothing to fear as a result of this popping up anywhere in the city.  Just making sure you weren't advocating something for another neighborhood you would not have in your own because it would be somewhat incongruous to Riverview and Maple Ridge as well as future development along SoBo.

However, consider what you just said about attorneys, counselors, judges, witnesses, LEO's and the like having to drive choked expressways into downtown.  Same issue anyone else has getting to downtown.  Denser infill and development in downtown will only exacerbate that problem, so why even persist in developing more of downtown?

[Conan71]

I guess I'll consider myself the new instigator.   

I'm enjoying the spirited banter, thanks for the input and ideas.

[Red Arrow]

However, consider what you just said about attorneys, counselors, judges, witnesses, LEO's and the like having to drive choked expressways into downtown.  Same issue anyone else has getting to downtown.  Denser infill and development in downtown will only exacerbate that problem, so why even persist in developing more of downtown?

At some point we could cross the threshold and make light rail feasible.