Tulsa World: County OKs funds for land for a new juvenile justice center

[carltonplace]

I'm told by some I like to argue, just to argue.  

My question about the Wal*Mart stemmed from design and land use.  I was not an active member here when a Supercenter was proposed for East End.  I know many urban enthusiasts that flipped out.  I haven't had one person ask me about this, in fact many were unaware until I asked them.

Why are we more upset with the idea of the world's largest retailer plopping down in a location many believed could become a Utopian downtown development than a juvenile justice center being constructed on the fringe in a currently undesirable corner of downtown?

The issue that most people took with the Wal*Mart proposal for the East End was two-fold:
1. The developer bought the parcel as soon as a different developer had put together a proposal for the area that included hotels, shopping and living units. The urban development was more desirable (yes it failed just as many East End proposals have) and the competing Wal*Mart proposal seemed like a land grab. Wal*Mart wasn't even on board.
2. The Wal*Mart design was suburban with large parking lots and set backs. We want retail in downtown (even large retail is fine) but it should be urban/space saving design with a building that can outlive the current use if that use fails.

[rdj]

The issue that most people took with the Wal*Mart proposal for the East End was two-fold:
1. The developer bought the parcel as soon as a different developer had put together a proposal for the area that included hotels, shopping and living units. The urban development was more desirable (yes it failed just as many East End proposals have) and the competing Wal*Mart proposal seemed like a land grab. Wal*Mart wasn't even on board.
2. The Wal*Mart design was suburban with large parking lots and set backs. We want retail in downtown (even large retail is fine) but it should be urban/space saving design with a building that can outlive the current use if that use fails.

In my private meetings with the developers Wal*Mart had some level of commitment.  Obviously it wasn't in stone, but Wal*Mart was very interested.  It is well documented that Wal*Mart has changed strategies since the '07 financial crisis.

Also, I felt the developers were working to modify their plan to include urban elements.  While there was not underground structured parking (ala Whole Foods in downtown Austin) it was going to have a much different layout than a suburban Wal*Mart.  Personally, I liked the idea of making Frankfort (or was it Greenwood?) a private street with a decorative element that bridged the gap from the planned development west of the Wal*Mart.

We laud Home Depot for being "downtown" but really it isn't any different than a typical HD other than being smaller.

[rdj]

You should come to lunch with us next week.  I'm sure Recyclemichael would be happy to oversee your initiation ritual

Thanks for the invite.  I'm already booked for lunch that day.  Enjoy a three-way for me!

[Conan71]

Enjoy a three-way for me!

[Townsend]

Bow-chicka

[Truman]

"The potential for the redevelopment of the Crosby Heights neighborhood is great and putting a tourniquet on its access point (Archer) into downtown is a short term solution to a problem that will never go away."  <rdj

A point being missed by the County.

"It goes back to the DESIGN of everything; if they spend the extra money to get a really nice design for this center it will help the neighborhood. " <LAP

Design is part of it. Use is a greater entity than design for that area.
A Police Station or other visible sign of stability and order would go a long way in
negating the impact of a prison, homeless shelter. and the uses being allowed, for Archer, at this time.

Nothing about another detention facility would act to curb the behavior that is rampant in that area.

One of my favorite contributions by a Tulsa World reader. It does pose a question that as of yet has not been answered. 4 to Fix?>


Letter to the Editor: Disappointed in vote

by: Doyle C. Pierce, Tulsa
Thursday, June 09, 2011


Open letter to Tulsa County commissioners:

Recently you voted to transfer $2 million from the Four to Fix funds into the county general fund, to be used to purchase a site for a 'future' juvenile center. I am disappointed in your vote for several reasons:

1. A juvenile center was not included in Four to Fix.

2. If we have excess funds in Four to Fix, why not lower the sales tax?

3. The (Storey Wrecker Services Inc. site at 10 N. Elwood Ave.) will be a disaster - it will cost untold millions to remediate the site because of decades of motor oil, gasoline, diesel fuel, brake fluid, transmission fluid, radiator coolant and any other fluid that can leak into the soil from wrecked vehicles. The only way to satisfy the EPA will be to dig out the contaminated soil (which could be several feet deep), haul it off, treat it and return it or replace it with non-contaminated soil.

4. In addition, the Storey property is presently on the property tax rolls, which will be lost revenue to the county and city if the county buys it. Same for any other private property.

5. What is wrong with the present property? Renovate it, even to the point of tearing down and rebuilding one structure at a time. Use the excess from Four to Fix and from Vision 2025 to renovate.

6. Where will the funding for a new center come from? Are we facing another sales tax or another bond issue?

[rdj]

I'm not sure how I missed this but while reviewing ODOT's page about the I-244 bridge I discovered a study completed by Jack Crowley for this site.  The PDF is here -->  http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/recovery/tiger/tulsa_i244/pdfs/storey.pdf

His final concept is certainly very palatable assuming the light rail were to happen and be positioned as he has placed it.  A Frisco bridge over the tracks would be a great benefit to downtown.

My question is, will the construction of a juvenile center on this site derail his vision? 

[Conan71]

Another surface lot???   

[TheTed]

I question the need for a bridge at Frisco. You'd have to remove the north and west legs of the IDL before a Frisco railroad overpass should even be considered.

Where does this overpass take you? The loading dock of the BOK Center? Frisco is dead ends in nearly every direction. An overpass isn't going to change the fact that it's an undesirable, disconnected corner of downtown. Which is why a juvie center is OK.

How many decades of downtown revitalization would have to happen before developers would even think about putting something in there?

[rdj]

Another surface lot???   

That's why I said final plan.   

Here is page nine of the PDF I linked above. 



The Frisco bridge becomes the access to the light rail station from the BOk Center & the Convention Center.  It would also provide more access to the Crosbie Heights & Owen Park neighborhoods from the IDL because you could exit at Second Street from westboud I-244 or enter the IDL from First Street by crossing at Frisco rather than going over to Denver and cutting back.

[runfromtulsa]

A nice juvenile detention facility will really help all of us here in Owen Park, as well as the new businesses in the Brady District.  There is nothing like having criminals around to make a destination like the Brady District attractive and exciting.

[Townsend]

A nice juvenile detention facility will really help all of us here in Owen Park, as well as the new businesses in the Brady District.  There is nothing like having criminals around to make a destination like the Brady District attractive and exciting.

Sounds like a good reason for you to run.from.Tulsa.

[BaltimorePoke]

That's why I said final plan.   

Here is page nine of the PDF I linked above. 

The Frisco bridge becomes the access to the light rail station from the BOk Center & the Convention Center.  It would also provide more access to the Crosbie Heights & Owen Park neighborhoods from the IDL because you could exit at Second Street from westboud I-244 or enter the IDL from First Street by crossing at Frisco rather than going over to Denver and cutting back.

I like the concept alot.  The bridge drops pedestrians right into the South(west) entrance. 

[we vs us]

A nice juvenile detention facility will really help all of us here in Owen Park, as well as the new businesses in the Brady District.  There is nothing like having criminals around to make a destination like the Brady District attractive and exciting.

What I like about you is that you'll actually read a thread before spamming it.  Also, you're not typing in Russian. 

[ZYX]

http://www.newson6.com/story/15067125/tulsa-countys-new-juvenile-justice-center-will-be-located-downtown

It will go downtown.