How can we unite?

[TulsaMoon]

Reading these forums and posting every now and then I am convinced that this country of ours will never get along. What is posted here reflects our nation. We have posters on one side that say "teabaggers" and another that says "libtards". How do we move on from the Bush and Obama haters into a country that really works together and comes together? This is a question for you all... Flame away.

[Conan71]

Beat it you maggot.

Just kidding.

I agree, the partisan rift keeps growing when it seems obvious that most solutions probably like somewhere in the middle.  I believe until we have people who are truly interested in "serving" the country instead of "being in power" it's going to be this way.  I also believe that slanted commentary media and blogs have taken over as the primary political news source for more people.  If someone watches Rachael Maddow and reads Daily Kos for all their political information, they are going to believe that liberal thinking is the only way and that conservative solutions are full of failure.  Likewise for someone who watches Hannity and reads only conservative blogs only they will think all solutions lie in conservatism.

Unfortunately, access to more information from more un-eductated or at least very slanted sources is blurring the lines of reality.

As far as my own partisan issues I see them as follows:

Where I'm growing increasingly more frustrated with my own party is the blind mantra that tax cuts are the only solution, when it's obvious our government needs to cut spending and we all need to chip in and help pay down the debt.  I'm also sick and tired of GOP candidates pandering to the evangelicals.

I don't like the liberal philosophy that there's no problem too big for an even bigger government to stick it's nose into.  I don't believe that the solution to every problem has a price tag on it, but rather can be better solved through personal effort.

I was thinking to myself this morning, what would happen if every single citizen and non-citizen would say: "What is one way I could stand to be less dependent on government and what could I do to make that happen today?"

[dbacks fan]

/\/\/\/\/\ Give that man a Marshall's!

[AquaMan]

I don't think its just politics. Its the nation's personality. We are so divided on so much and so passionate about our divisions that one begins to wonder when the revolution commences, except that we're not united enough to even do that! Much of it comes from a well informed populace that feeds that information through a faulty attitudinal frame of reference. IOW, they hear what they want to hear, believe what fits into their mindset.

FWIW, I have become more convinced that nothing gets done when we all are trying to just get along and compromise. Civility is nice and I respond better to it, but truthfully, we would still have slavery today had we all just played nice. So, as much as I regret the loss of civility it may serve a purpose.

[Teatownclown]

Reading these forums and posting every now and then I am convinced that this country of ours will never get along. What is posted here reflects our nation. We have posters on one side that say "teabaggers" and another that says "libtards". How do we move on from the Bush and Obama haters into a country that really works together and comes together? This is a question for you all... Flame away.

Slavery? Some still are slaves to other thangs than their mastas....
When the day ends, no matter our differences the anger and divisiveness subsides. It's been interesting to see the underlying tone here compared to 3 or 4 years ago become less spiteful. I think our country is changing. We can all now agree war with the Arabs is a no win and expensive but we may differ on the use of force here and abroad. Perhaps, coming to the realization that we are all in this boat together helps. Or perhaps it's because of an election cycle lull. But in between the lines of many posts here concern and good nature seem to prevail. I've even started to ignore the personal attacks, the bullying, and the sucker punching.

[heironymouspasparagus]

TulsaMoon,
We can't.  We have been this divided since about the beginning, except for very special occasions, for very short times.


And I always try to write the formal usage, "Tea Baggers" rather than the informal contraction.  It just ain't right to pervert the language so.  And also, the formal, "Dummycrats" and "Republicontins".

Teatown may have something in the election cycle lull.  Just wait until next year.

Aqua,
We replaced one form of slavery with another.

[we vs us]

I'm worried.  

We've always been a country that disagrees vehemently with itself and that's cool.  That's what we do.  Our whole form of government encourages it. But we can't agree on the facts to disagree on.  What is actually real is at issue, and that boggles my mind.  Global warming is one of those things.  So is evolution.  So is our recent economic history.  Also some of the things that happened during the Bush Admin.  That's not exhaustive, just some of the stuff off the top of my head.  

I'm not making a judgement about what we've decided -- you can read my posting history for that -- but we've decided that what actually happened is up for grabs.  Numbers, provable facts, the historical record -- all of these are maleable, and that's what I don't understand.  Why facts don't matter.

This is what makes it hard for me to accept compromise these days.  Because in many cases it is not a compromise between competing solutions, it's a compromise between fact and not fact.  It's a compromise between solutions based on proven data and solutions based entirely on ideology.

So, at least on a personal level, I don't know where we go from here.  Over my political life, I feel that I've been pushed to be more and more partisan, more by the other side than by folks on my side of the aisle, so unless the tone on the other side abates I don't know how I can ease away, either.  I appreciate the honest debates I hear on the forum, and occasionally we'll have a discussion between sharply differing viewpoints that shows you what's possible. But that's not where the money and power is in Washington right now.  The money and power is in fighting, and that's why we've got what we've got.

/rambleton.

[Gaspar]

Reading these forums and posting every now and then I am convinced that this country of ours will never get along. What is posted here reflects our nation. We have posters on one side that say "teabaggers" and another that says "libtards". How do we move on from the Bush and Obama haters into a country that really works together and comes together? This is a question for you all... Flame away.

I like where you are going with this thread.  

I believe that for most of us, the goal is the same, but the vehicle is different.    The vast majority of people who participate in political banter unfortunately do so with a my/your team mentality.  For them politics is sport.  That is unfortunate because they don't take joy in fully exploring and understanding the philosophy of others.  These people are easy to spot because when their argument weakens they resort to name-calling just like when their team is losing.

I think we grow through the debate, as long as each side listens to the other and is civil in their disagreements. I can not speak for everyone, but my goal is to build on my own understanding of politics and society.  To do this I need to understand the philosophy and passion of others.  I can appreciate those who agree with me, but I value those who disagree even more.

If my ideas, perceptions, and interpretation of history cannot hold up to the scrutiny or logic of others, than they are of little use to me.  On the other side of the coin, I must admit, I do take pleasure in the rare occasion when even the most illogical opposition to my point of view submits and validates my position.  

TulsaMoon, do not view our banter here as negative, on the contrary, I believe that we all greatly value each member's participation.  The vast majority of regulars hold each other in high regard, even if they won't admit it.  Our evangelism for our particular flavor of politics is fed by our need to express why we believe that way.  We each care enough about our audience to gift significant amounts of time to them, and likewise they to us.  For that I am very thankful.  These people are my teachers.  

[Conan71]

I'm worried.  

We've always been a country that disagrees vehemently with itself and that's cool.  That's what we do.  Our whole form of government encourages it. But we can't agree on the facts to disagree on.  What is actually real is at issue, and that boggles my mind.  Global warming is one of those things.  So is evolution.  So is our recent economic history.  Also some of the things that happened during the Bush Admin.  That's not exhaustive, just some of the stuff off the top of my head.  

I'm not making a judgement about what we've decided -- you can read my posting history for that -- but we've decided that what actually happened is up for grabs.  Numbers, provable facts, the historical record -- all of these are maleable, and that's what I don't understand.  Why facts don't matter.

This is what makes it hard for me to accept compromise these days.  Because in many cases it is not a compromise between competing solutions, it's a compromise between fact and not fact.  It's a compromise between solutions based on proven data and solutions based entirely on ideology.

So, at least on a personal level, I don't know where we go from here.  Over my political life, I feel that I've been pushed to be more and more partisan, more by the other side than by folks on my side of the aisle, so unless the tone on the other side abates I don't know how I can ease away, either.  I appreciate the honest debates I hear on the forum, and occasionally we'll have a discussion between sharply differing viewpoints that shows you what's possible. But that's not where the money and power is in Washington right now.  The money and power is in fighting, and that's why we've got what we've got.

/rambleton.

I find it disturbing that one faction of Americans can view another faction of Americans as the enemy.

Unfortunately each side views compromise as capitulation or losing something.  It's all about maintaining power and maintaining political capital, it's not about moving America forward.  It's about creating the most believable sound bites to those who keep them in power so they can become more powerful.  The two party system is horribly broken.  It allows for one party to pillage the treasury and remove more liberties from individuals either via a philosophy of empowering the government or empowering private enterprise. 

People like Rush Limbaugh or Chris Matthews have become useful tools for the RNC and DNC to get partisan messages out.  It's led to less of a middle ground, if you ask me.  As a kid, there were the local news papers and the evening news for your political news.  That was it.  Any opinion shows were Meet The Press or the occasional political piece on 60 Minutes.  30 years ago we were not completely inundated with so much supporting chatter of partisan political ideas.

Now one can spend an entire day at work doing nothing but reading one political blog after another which helps to feed which ever partisan view they wish to ascribe to. 

You mention facts as if it's only your side of the aisle's view which is based in fact.  The "facts" keep getting filtered by people who stand to gain one way or the other, i.e. those who can profit from man-made global warming and those whose lives will be better if it's disproven.   

As long as the goal is to remain in power and each side keeps effectively putting their message out through a well organized media assault, this is what we can expect.  I think it's time to quit thinking of ourselves as Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, but rather as Americans.

[TulsaMoon]

I think it's time to quit thinking of ourselves as Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, but rather as Americans.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was hoping to see. This is the path to moving America forward IMO.

[we vs us]

I think it's time to quit thinking of ourselves as Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, but rather as Americans.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was hoping to see. This is the path to moving America forward IMO.

We're all Americans, and Gaspar was right up thread.  We all want the best for the country, or we wouldn't be arguing our points so vehemently.  But I'll bite:  what do you think needs to happen for us to come together?  Practically speaking?  what are the issues you'd like to see us compromise on, and what does that mean? 

[we vs us]

I find it disturbing that one faction of Americans can view another faction of Americans as the enemy.

Unfortunately each side views compromise as capitulation or losing something.  It's all about maintaining power and maintaining political capital, it's not about moving America forward.  It's about creating the most believable sound bites to those who keep them in power so they can become more powerful.  The two party system is horribly broken.  It allows for one party to pillage the treasury and remove more liberties from individuals either via a philosophy of empowering the government or empowering private enterprise. 

People like Rush Limbaugh or Chris Matthews have become useful tools for the RNC and DNC to get partisan messages out.  It's led to less of a middle ground, if you ask me.  As a kid, there were the local news papers and the evening news for your political news.  That was it.  Any opinion shows were Meet The Press or the occasional political piece on 60 Minutes.  30 years ago we were not completely inundated with so much supporting chatter of partisan political ideas.

Now one can spend an entire day at work doing nothing but reading one political blog after another which helps to feed which ever partisan view they wish to ascribe to. 

You mention facts as if it's only your side of the aisle's view which is based in fact.  The "facts" keep getting filtered by people who stand to gain one way or the other, i.e. those who can profit from man-made global warming and those whose lives will be better if it's disproven.   

As long as the goal is to remain in power and each side keeps effectively putting their message out through a well organized media assault, this is what we can expect.  I think it's time to quit thinking of ourselves as Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, but rather as Americans.

I think we're sort of talking about the same thing, re: facts.  Back when there was one or two news outlets that people trusted, there was a consensus that Cronkite could present America with those necessary set of facts and with those facts we could have an adult discussion about what needed to happen.  I suppose it all could've come crashing down with a liberal news outlet, but it didn't.  Instead, Fox News decided to turn itself into a right wing propaganda channel and they've been doing that for a decade now.  Obviously that was only the start -- blogs and indy reporting followed, left and right -- but Fox News IMHO was a major watershed in how our news and facts have been partisanized.

I mention facts because something has to be true, and I try to hunt down the things that have a proven history behind them or a scientific consensus or the place that the experts with experience have come down on.  I'm not saying "my side" has a monopoly on truth, but there doesn't seem to be as strong a concern for these things on the right, especially when we're talking about the Tea Partiers, many of whom are still arguing the finer points of Obama's citizenship, despite all the evidence to the contrary.  And these folks will discard the facts they don't like in favor of conspiracy theories, because the conspiracy theories hold the facts that they want to agree with. 

(Yes, the left did this with Bush, but the worst and weirdest of these people never got elected to higher office; we're now looking at a strong minority caucus in the House guided by the anti-fact, not to mention state level legislators and executives.)

I am your fellow American and I care deeply about the country and what exactly my daughter will inherit when she's an adult, and I'm ready to support compromise on most of the issues floating around out there, but I'm not ready to support compromise that is based solely on ideology.  Unfortunately, that's where we are with a lot of the folks on the right.  (I don't include you personally in that group, btw.  I enjoy arguing with you because you're an independent thinker, and that's valuable to either side of the aisle.) 

[Red Arrow]

Obviously that was only the start -- blogs and indy reporting followed, left and right -- but Fox News IMHO was a major watershed in how our news and facts have been partisanized.

I think Dan Rather was a forerunner in regard to slanted news.  We stopped listening to CBS network news shortly after he became the anchor.

[we vs us]

I think Dan Rather was a forerunner in regard to slanted news.  We stopped listening to CBS network news shortly after he became the anchor.

That was before my time, but I can understand.  From what I've heard, Cronkite coming out against the Vietnam War was a pivotal moment . . . both for the policy of the state and also for the idea that news could/should actively shape policy. Dan Rather was a relatively young pup at that point, if I remember correctly.

[Conan71]

Instead, Fox News decided to turn itself into a right wing propaganda channel and they've been doing that for a decade now.  Obviously that was only the start -- blogs and indy reporting followed, left and right -- but Fox News IMHO was a major watershed in how our news and facts have been partisanized.

At least in my lifetime, you could probably trace this back as far as Vietnam and Watergate, though after those issues were in the rearview mirror everyone seemed to pick up and move on.

In terms of more recent events which got us to this point, people started following news much more closely as a form of entertainment as the first Gulf War unfolded in their living rooms.  Then the current shrill partisan era began with the advent of political commentary talk radio in the early 1990's as more adults were turning from music to information for their daily radio listening.  Rush Limbaugh became the opposition voice to the Clinton Administration.  Other than Paul Harvey, can anyone think of another radio broadcaster who had been so broadly syndicated at that point in time?  I honestly cannot remember a time in my brief history that any administration was under daily scrutiny like the Clintons were.  Every foible, every mis-step by a cabinet member was pointed out with glee.  You never heard about any success of the Clintons on Limbaugh's show or other conservative commentators who started getting their own shows as the popularity of talk radio continued to grow.  I believe that was also when more people began to hear the terms "liberal" and "conservative" on a daily basis and started to examine more of where their core values aligned with the political issues.  

When Republicans swept legislative elections in 1994, I do believe they owed a good deal of that to great dissemination of information via talk radio.  The internet was also starting to really take off, and there were multiple information channels on cable.  I believe that's about the time I first heard the term "information junkie".  

Newt Gingrich, bolstered by a growing conservative cheering squad and a massive ego, viewed the GOP revolution as an absolute repudiation of anything Democrat, liberal, or Clinton.  I have always resented the waste of time and money on the White Water investigation.  Certainly some of that was payback for the Iran/Contra investigation and hearings.  This was a real departure from previous legislative and executive branch relationships when there were opposing parties in the majorities vs. the White House.  Even though Tip O'Neill and President Reagan did butt heads, they did appear to respect each other and realized compromise had real value in tackling the issues of the day.  I'm too young to really properly analyze previous administrations relationships, at least on a day-to-day basis.

I did find some interesting information Googling around as to the origins of the news channels.  I was already aware CNN had been around since 1980 or '81.  Fox and MSNBC both launched in 1996.  Here's an interesting fact I was not previously aware of: Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham, and John Gibson all worked for MSNBC in those early years.

In reality, I don't think you can really pick out a slant one way or the other in the actual hard news shows on Fox or MSNBC.  The problem is, people tune in to Maddow or O'Reilly and mistake them for news journalists.  Fox was more the innovator of having a slate of political commentator programming before MSNBC.  Where either network blurs the lines of journalist vs. entertainer is when they have their staff of commentators man the desk during something like election or debate coverage or national disaster coverage.  Putting them into more traditional news roles like that confuses some viewers into believing they are non-partisan.  Likewise, someone who had as visible a reporting career like Wolf Blitzer or Anderson Cooper segueing into commentary helps confuse the viewer as well as to what are facts and what are opinion.

Yes, Fox fired the first volley in a larger volume of political commentary, but MSNBC has caught up to it.  People who want their own political views bolstered have a home network where they can feed those thought patterns around the clock.  If anyone assumes they are getting "facts" by watching political commentary, they simply are not getting them without a filter.