Lackmeyer: There’s a Theme Here Somewhere….

[ZYX]

He said he hasn't been downtown in three years, so honestly, I think he needs to get down there and experience it before he writes something like this about Tulsa. I don't think he was neccesarily trying to be negative towards Tulsa but it sorta came off that way.

He did leave this comment in response to mine and someone elses. (My real name is Kyle)

Slackmeyer

Thanks Reggie. I really, really love downtown Tulsa, and it wouldn't take much for me to get as "obsessive" about its prospects as some say I am about downtown OKC.
Kyle, I will want to visit that Art Deco museum!

[SXSW]

Those are are directly comparable to what went on in downtown OKC from the mid-1990s through the early 2000s.  The difference is that you can see the full result of that "slow and steady" development pace in OKC.  You'll see it more fully in downtown Tulsa by around 2015, when all of the big developments that are either underway or about to get underway will be complete.

Also, OKC doesn't have the same dynamics that Tulsa has with midtown and our urban districts like Brookside and Cherry Street, or Utica Square.  Tulsan's were coming into the city but were going to midtown to shop/eat/drink, and not until the past several years was downtown squarely in that mix.  OKC was able to build up, and continue to build up, its downtown because that was the only option plus it is more centrally-located in their metro while Tulsa's downtown is not. 

Steve needs to come pay downtown a visit and I imagine he will be impressed by how far it has come along even in 3 years. 

[Conan71]

It's interesting, outside of Bricktown, OKC really doesn't have any other well-defined or at least well developed entertainment districts other than new dreck.  The Paseo is somewhat of an arts and, well, sort of dining.  There's the area in the NW corner of downtown where McNellie's is with about three or four other restaurants.  It just doesn't seem quite so well defined like Blue Dome, Brady, Cherry St., Brookside as far as downtown/midtown.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I simply cannot think of any other really pedestrian areas of OKC outside Bricktown/Ford/Cox until you get out into the surrounding communities like Norman.

[ZYX]

Deep Deuce, Automobile Alley

[TheArtist]

   His perspective is interesting actually.  I would have thought that Tulsa was the one doing the small, steady, organic developments and OKC was the one trying to do the large "big splash" ones. Core to Shore anyone?

 One thing that caught my eye right off was the mention of the American statue.  Tulsa didn't propose it, some artist did.  Tulsa didn't fail at pulling it off, the artist did.  Its interesting his perspective again in that most of us, I believe, never thought the statue would come to fruition anyway, and many didn't like it, and I think all of us had forgotten about it long ago.  Interesting that someone in OKC remembered it and brought it up.  Meanwhile there are all kinds of smaller park/ sculptural projects underway or done in Tulsa like the John Hope Franklin Reconcilliation Park (and its numerous sculptures), the park and fountain right on Boston, the neat park thats currently underway in the Brady Arts District with the Geothermal wells, and then there is the park that Land Legacy will be doing in the East End area, and you could add the Route 66 park with its bronze sculptures that will be going in by downtown near the river.

 And I too agree with the previous posters who mentioned our Cherry Street and Brookside, and now the up and coming Pearl District.  I wouldn't trade Bricktown for Brookside and Cherry Street, no way. Again, we are just different cities with different development timing and patterns.  

 As for Kanbar properties leaving all at once. I am not sure they are.  I went downtown this last Saturday and walked down 5th and was actually struck by the number of new things that had gone in along there.  2, 3 years ago almost all of the windows were dark and vacant.  Now quite a number of them sport new businesses.  Its really nice to be on Boston Ave in the evenings now with Elote's open on the west side and Mods open on the east and seeing all the people sitting at the sidewalk cafe areas.  If the Philtower does a restaurant or bar in that space facing Boston it could be just the thing to tip that street into something quite lively.  There is no other street in this region of the country that can match that strip on Boston Ave for its striking Urban Canyon view.  When it and 5th street comes back alive again, WOW, it will be just like a little bit of NYC got plopped down in the middle of the midwest.

As for the Brady Arts, Greenwood and Blue Dome districts being separate and us not having a "critical mass" entertainment district downtown... I agree.  But each one is still growing, even in this tough recession, and when they do finally connect its going to be fantastic.  You will have block after block after block of great, mostly organically grown, pedestrian friendly streets full of; music venues,  museums, parks, shopping, dining, entertainment venues, art galleries and studios, living, etc.  

 Sure we have seen big plans come and go and have wished some of them would have happened.  But I haven't dwelled much on them for its been quite enjoyable watching the "little guys" slowly, steadily, piece by piece, building up our downtown again.

 I have said it for years now, 2014 is going to be downtown Tulsa's year.  Thats when enough of the current projects will be done or underway such that downtown will finally, really, feel like its alive again.  We were behind OKC getting started, (though again mid-towns districts were well underway) but 2014 isn't that far off.

 One last thing, someone mentioned the Paseo and other areas in OKC,  if we were to compare apples to apples enlarging Tulsas land area to be the size of OKCs, we would suddenly have even more wonderful, pedestrian friendly spots in our city.  Jenks and its downtown full of antique shops, the Riverwalk and Aquarium, Sand Springs and its neat downtown, Broken Arrows downtown, and you could even lump in the impressive downtown that Sapulpa has.  Imagine if those areas were all within Tulsas city limits (and we could still be smaller in area than OKC) and we called them "districts".   We have a lot going for us and a lot of great potential.

[Conan71]

I'd love to know the amount of private investment which has been a result of the V-2025 public investment.  And what sort of growth we have seen in sales tax receipts in recent years as a result.  Undoubtedly there are projects which probably would have happened whether or not we passed V-2025, but I can't help but think that program has helped bring about new development ideas which would not have happened without the new sense of vitality all across Tulsa County.

[Steve L]

Hey guys!
I think a lot of you have some good points.
There are many in Oklahoma City who would agree that Core to Shore does not fit into the organic, small approach to urban development, and it will be interesting to see how that will play out.
Please know I'm sincere in my praise and appreciation of downtown Tulsa, and obviously nothing in this world is black and white - there is a LOT of gray.
That said, I thought the American, Kanbar and something else I didn't mention - the river idea proposed a few years back - represent "big sweep" approaches (like Core to Shore and OKC's earlier, now much maligned Pei Plan) that don't seem to work out as well as one might hope.
The question is, do we get all caught up by the "big sweep" folks when often it's the smaller, quieter, more organic developments that have the bigger impact on a downtown?
And if so, what, if anything can be learned from all that in both cities?
One other matter - I was in Tulsa about a year ago, and was wowed by how nicely the ballpark fit into everything. I love Brady and Blue Dome, and wish OKC hadn't torn down similar iconic assets during our urban renewal days. The confusion over me not having been there for three years was that I wrote I had not been to Arnie's in three years (god, I love that place).
Cold beer to all! - Steve

[Jeff P]

Steve - thanks for coming in to discuss!

Just one comment:

That said, I thought the American, Kanbar and something else I didn't mention - the river idea proposed a few years back - represent "big sweep" approaches (like Core to Shore and OKC's earlier, now much maligned Pei Plan) that don't seem to work out as well as one might hope.

As previously noted, The American wasn't really something that was a proposed development from the "powers that be" in Tulsa.  It was brought forth by the artist who was proposing to design/build it, and to say it had "mixed" support within Tulsa would be generous.

As for the river vote a few years ago... well, all I can say about that is that it was a good idea with poor execution and worse timing.

The BOK Center was still under construction when that was put to the voters and Blue Dome was just emerging as a viable draw downtown.  We were also years away from having the ballpark downtown.  The general public basically had no reason to support another big public development project when the jury was still out (so to speak) on the impact of Vision 2025.

It was also roundly confused with a public/private proposal ("The Channels") that had circulated within the media several months before the vote.

At the end of the day, that thing failed because of poor timing and poor marketing.

It's really too bad, because I really believe that had they just waited a few years for the general public to see the impact of Vision 2025, it probably would have passed easily.  We'll see here in a few years what happens...

[Steve L]

Yep, I understand. It seems a lot of these "big sweep" approaches are pushed by "the powers that be." And perhaps that's a topic in and of itself. Curious; would you say then that the smaller, quieter organic developments (Elliott Nelson, Michael Seager come to mind) tend to create more or less actual momentum than the "big sweeps"?

[Conan71]

Yep, I understand. It seems a lot of these "big sweep" approaches are pushed by "the powers that be." And perhaps that's a topic in and of itself. Curious; would you say then that the smaller, quieter organic developments (Elliott Nelson, Michael Seager come to mind) tend to create more or less actual momentum than the "big sweeps"?

That really is a chicken V. egg issue there.  I suspect they each feed on each other, though I think it takes one landmark development like a college, arena, ballpark, or office complex for organic development to take hold and spread.  When people see organic development happening hand-in-hand with a nice public investment like the ball park, it gets them more excited and more willing to go along with more sweep projects.

The Greenwood District was rehabbed over 20 years ago, yet it was somewhat of an oasis and completely disconnected from downtown.  As I recall, that was a TDA project, and funded with public money.  If not for UCAT/OSU and loyal followers of a few businesses which were there, it would have died on the vine a long time ago.  Now it actually feels connected to the Brady and Blue Dome via the ball park area.

Going back even further, I think a lot of that development may have been near impossible without the construction of UCAT.  That whole area just north of the IDL and west to the country club was about as blighted as an area could get.

Elliot gets on here from time to time as does Blake Ewing.  I wish one or the other would weigh in on how much V-2025 made their developments more viable.  As I recall before construction started on the BOK Center, other than Arnies, 1974, the Blue Dome Diner & McNellies, the only other thing going on in the Blue Dome were a bunch of transient beer bars and Kitchell's usual thug hang-outs. 

I'm not sure if the rents finally forced Kitchell and his poor/temporary development out or simply other's jumped in line ahead of him to get the good spots and truly rehab them into something more permanent.

[Jeff P]

That really is a chicken V. egg issue there.  I suspect they each feed on each other, though I think it takes one landmark development like a college, arena, ballpark, or office complex for organic development to take hold and spread.  When people see organic development happening hand-in-hand with a nice public investment like the ball park, it gets them more excited and more willing to go along with more sweep projects.

This is probably about right on.

I think it takes both.

Without the BOK Center and the ballpark, I think Blue Dome would have probably continued to slowly develop, because there was already some organic growth going on.

But I don't think you would have seen a transformation of the Brady Arts district and certainly not things like the One Place development.

The "big sweep" projects help accelerate and sustain development momentum.

As Conan said, it would be very interesting to get Blake's take on this topic.

[rdj]

Elliot opened McNellie's in 2004, after a downtown arena was approved but still three years before it opened.

I've heard Blake say to a group that the public sector investment in downtown makes his ability to attract private investors infinitely easier.  Without the BOK Center he would have never been able to open Joe Momma's Pizza.

Steve, be wary about holding up Michael Seger as a bastion of organic development.  Have he and his mother done good things for the Blue Dome?  Possibly, but his inability to finish a loft project that was partially funded by taxpayer dollars (in the form of a loan) has certainly tainted any positive projects he has completed.  Personally, I would love for one of your counterparts at the Tulsa World to do an investigation as to why he has not finished that project.

If the vision of the Tulsa Stadium Trust founders comes to fruition the Brady District & Blue Dome District will be connected in a big way.  I feel confident in saying the delay in not expending the other ~$30MM in money on development around the ballpark is directly related to recessionary factors.  Many of the donors and leads on the project envisioned the ballpark being surrounded by a district akin to Kansas City's Power & Light District, Louisville's Fourth Street Live and Baltimore's Power Plant Live.  It is no coincidence all of those developments were completed and are operated by the Cordish Companies. (http://www.cordish.com)  Cordish has visited Tulsa and has expressed at least a passing interest in partnering on a project of that style & scale.  Once the general economy picks up and national restaurant/bar concepts and retail are willing to expand you will see the "Ballpark District" begin to flourish.

Those of us that prefer to spend our time and dollars in local owned "organically" developed districts find that vision revolting.  Personally, I don't want anyone to "Jenks my Downtown".  However, one of the points I agree with in Steve's blog post is the attraction of regional visitors.  A large scale development that includes nationally recognized tenants will provide a much greater hook for pleasure and convention travel than the Blue Dome & Brady will on their current development arcs.

[carltonplace]

Private development "big sweep" projects have certainly caused one letdown after another for Tulsa. I can name at least 5 proposals in east downtown that were announced and then faded away.

Movie Studio
Frankfort Place
East End soccer stadium/hotel The East End will offer over 1.9 million square feet of mixed-use development including over 450,000 square feet of retail and dining experiences; 800 units of unparalleled urban living; three high quality hotels; 150,000 square feet of modern office space; and -- as a centerpiece -- an 8,000 seat state-of-the-art baseball stadium.
Walmart
Mark Larson of Larson Development LLC purchased a total of five buildings in Tulsa's business district from Bill White Co


Talaas Local developers behind the project — called Talaas, a derivative of the Creek Indian word for Tulsa — say they believe the estimated $400 million, mixed-use redevelopment could become another critical link in the efforts to revitalize downtown.

Talaas would encompass about 49 acres bounded by U.S. 75 to the east, the Blue Dome District to the west, Sixth Street to the south, and the Greenwood District to the north

[ZYX]

From what I have read Talass is not dead, but I doubt it will ever happen. Anyways, I would rather focus more on connecting the Brady, Blue Dome, Greenwood, CBD, and BOK Districts before we create a new one.

[rdj]

Private development "big sweep" projects have certainly caused one letdown after another for Tulsa. I can name at least 5 proposals in east downtown that were announced and then faded away.

Movie Studio
Frankfort Place
East End soccer stadium/hotel The East End will offer over 1.9 million square feet of mixed-use development including over 450,000 square feet of retail and dining experiences; 800 units of unparalleled urban living; three high quality hotels; 150,000 square feet of modern office space; and -- as a centerpiece -- an 8,000 seat state-of-the-art baseball stadium.
Walmart
Mark Larson of Larson Development LLC purchased a total of five buildings in Tulsa's business district from Bill White Co


Talaas Local developers behind the project — called Talaas, a derivative of the Creek Indian word for Tulsa — say they believe the estimated $400 million, mixed-use redevelopment could become another critical link in the efforts to revitalize downtown.

Talaas would encompass about 49 acres bounded by U.S. 75 to the east, the Blue Dome District to the west, Sixth Street to the south, and the Greenwood District to the north

Larson is an OKC guy.  Maybe he was an operative to ruin our downtown?!?