Lackmeyer: There’s a Theme Here Somewhere….

[carltonplace]

From what I have read Talass is not dead, but I doubt it will ever happen. Anyways, I would rather focus more on connecting the Brady, Blue Dome, Greenwood, CBD, and BOK Districts before we create a new one.

I think the right ground up development in the east end could tip downtown into a regional draw like KC

[TheArtist]

  I think I was a little more eager/desperate lol, for one of those east end developments to happen a few years ago.  But since then, the steady progression of things from the Brady to Greenwood to the Blue Dome has given me a lot of comfort so to speak.  I agree, if something big were to happen in the east end, Bravo, and yes that could indeed make us a regional draw.    It almost boggles the mind for a native like me to imagine all of those areas, including the core of downtown, filled in and bustling.

[DTowner]

I think the observation about Tulsa's experience with grandiose announcements of large-scale projects that never come to fruition is fair as it relates to the series of announced projects in the East End and the river (Channels and then the county backed river project).  To some extent, under Mayor Savage in the late 1990s the Brady District was hyped as the next Bricktown, but the city wasn't really putting in any money (other than a TIF that wasn't generating much) to make much of anything happen.  Mayor Savage also talked repeatedly about landing a micro chip manufacturing plant, but instead got a factory that builds school buses.

In contrast, starting in the mid 1990s OKC passed a series of MAPS projects that built the canal through Bricktown, built a baseball stadium and arena, and made numerous improvements to the area.  Private development in OKC followed the public investments.

In Tulsa in the late 1990s, CFS was booming, WorldCom was hiring people by the truckload, Williams Communications was coming on like gangbusters and spending money like it was on fire, and the William's energy trading division was making it billions in profits.  And Tulsa voters were rejecting a half-cocked plan that was supposed to turn Tulsa into the amateur sports capitol of the world, with a velodrome, Olympic swimming pool, and soccer stadium among other venues spread out all over downtown.  In a few years, CFS, WorldCom and Williams Communications were all gone, Williams almost went under, energy trading was a dirty word, and CITGO had moved to Houston.  In essence, this was the civic "great awakening" Tulsans needed (and that OKC had previously had it own version of a decade earlier) to spur it to do something.  That something was Vision 2025 and then later Oneok Field.  After these large public investments in downtown, I think Tulsa is developing in a similar fashion as OKC, just a decade behind and in a uniquely Tulsa way.

As for Kanbar, I would be surprised if at some point he doesn't cash in his Tulsa chips and bank a nice profit.  He bought in at the low point for downtown and has no doubt seen the value of his Tulsa holdings go up – mostly due to efforts by others – but I suspect the real increase in property values is still a few years away.

[okcpulse]

One last thing, someone mentioned the Paseo and other areas in OKC,  if we were to compare apples to apples enlarging Tulsas land area to be the size of OKCs, we would suddenly have even more wonderful, pedestrian friendly spots in our city.  Jenks and its downtown full of antique shops, the Riverwalk and Aquarium, Sand Springs and its neat downtown, Broken Arrows downtown, and you could even lump in the impressive downtown that Sapulpa has.  Imagine if those areas were all within Tulsas city limits (and we could still be smaller in area than OKC) and we called them "districts".   We have a lot going for us and a lot of great potential.

I do not understand what you meant by this post, TheArtist.  Paseo is just 2.5 miles north of dowtown near NW 30th and Walker.  The heart of Western Avenue is 3.5 miles north of downtown.  And MidTown, which is in its infancy but catching on, is downtown.  The up and coming Classen Curve area (which will soon include Whole Foods) is 4.5 miles.  The Paseo and Western aren't fringe areas.

Now, I can agree if East Wharf at Lake Hefner applies, but not even OKC considers that a district.  Just a small group of eateries on Lake Hefner that have a decent view of the sunset over the water. 

Many Oklahomans often forget that up until 1956, Oklahoma City was only 85 square miles in land area with 250,000 residents.  Western Avenue and The Paseo are both within that historic footprint. 

[TheArtist]

I do not understand what you meant by this post, TheArtist.  Paseo is just 2.5 miles north of dowtown near NW 30th and Walker.  The heart of Western Avenue is 3.5 miles north of downtown.  And MidTown, which is in its infancy but catching on, is downtown.  The up and coming Classen Curve area (which will soon include Whole Foods) is 4.5 miles.  The Paseo and Western aren't fringe areas.

Now, I can agree if East Wharf at Lake Hefner applies, but not even OKC considers that a district.  Just a small group of eateries on Lake Hefner that have a decent view of the sunset over the water.  

Many Oklahomans often forget that up until 1956, Oklahoma City was only 85 square miles in land area with 250,000 residents.  Western Avenue and The Paseo are both within that historic footprint.  

Wasn't meaning to equate an equal distance from downtown with say the Paseo and Sand Springs, but was pointing out that if we were to imagine Tulsa's boundaries be similar to that of OKC's our perspective of "what we have" in comparison to OKC, might be different than it is now.  Tulsa's historic footprint was much smaller at one time too and we swallowed up some small towns (like Dawson and you can still see where their main street was and its buildings).  You can call any area in your town a "district", or area, if you want as easily as we can, and boy are we proficient at that lol.

 We compare OKC to Tulsa all the time, and there is no perfect way to do that.  As Tulsa's population spread south for instance, the developable land started filling up and population flowed over into other nearby towns like Jenks and Bixby. In many areas out south I can look to my left and see new houses going up, then to the right and see new houses going up and then look at the line on the map and realize that some of those houses are in Bixby, then others in Tulsa.  In some areas east of the river in Tulsa you can have a Tulsa address and be in a Jenks school district. Some of Tulsa is on the west side of the River by Jenks.  People aren't moving there because its a different city, its just the development pattern continually spreading out, and if the lines on the map were any different and those areas were still in Tulsa, they would still be moving there and they could still say they were moving there because of the better schools just like my family moved to an area with better Tulsa schools when the new neighborhoods, new shopping, and new schools were still within the boundaries of Tulsa.

Historic or no, it can be helpful to make the comparison more equal if you equate, the people who were in or moved into the area thats now in OKC, with the people who were in or moved into an equal area for Tulsa.

 Because to me, what your saying when you compare or brag about what OKC has done with what Tulsa has done is... this many people in OKC, in this area, have achieved this.... WE have done this with this place or this district, together the people in this sized area have built this, done that, etc.  In order to make it a somewhat more equitable comparison, it can occasionally be useful to compare the achievements of a similar number of people in a similar sized area, for Tulsa. You all still have the advantages of a bigger metro and being the capital so its still hard to compare perfectly, but a more equitable comparison.. would be like what I stated above, so that WE can say, we have done this, built that, etc.     Get my drift?

[Conan71]

Even with all the amenities, Kevin Durant is saying there's nothing to do in OKC.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Townsend]

Even with all the amenities, Kevin Durant is saying there's nothing to do in OKC.

Saw that.  He back pedaled as quickly as he could but some damage was done.

At least they're the Oklahoma City Thunder.  If they were the Oklahoma Thunder then Tulsa would be blamed for his boredom.

[okcpulse]

Which begs the question... what is it people want to do?  No matter if it's OKC, Tulsa, Dallas or Houston... no one ever goes into specifics.  I even hear it in Houston.  "There's not a whole lot to do around here."

So I ask, "what do you like to do for fun?"  Here is the common answer.  "Well, .... I don't know."  When people come back with that answer I just want to smack them.

Now, for a guy like Kevin Durant, who is a 22 year-old millionaire, there probably isn't much to do for a young guy like him.  And he likes Oklahoma City that way.  He doesn't like to go out all the time.  But even if he was trying to avoid TMZ by saying "nothing" and then walking away from their tabloid mentality, TMZ's behavior still illustrates a problem with this country's defaulted culture.  America has a syndrome that the only way for celebrities and athletes to live in this country is to take up residence in LA, NYC or Miami.  Every place else is taboo.

I can think of plenty of fun things to do in OKC that I personally enjoy, but someone else may not.  My all-time favorite thing to do for fun is spend time with kids.  As an adult, my idea of fun is rollerblading at Lake Hefner, or going to the Arts Festival.  Or going out for a night on the town to one of my favorite restaurants.  I enjoy places like McNellies in MidTown. But that's me.  

In Tulsa, I would enjoy the river, or dining on Brookside or hitting Hard Rock Casino.  I love going to the Wichitas and Little Sahara State Park.  They are ancient geological wonders.  But for someone else, there idea of fun might be completely different.  So when someone complains of there being nothing to do, it's completely subjective.

Honestly, I think America went and got bored with itself much to the chagrin brought on by Hollywood.  It could explain the country's sky-rockting obesity rate in Oklahoma and every place else.

[rdj]

We Tulsans thank residents of "The City" for supporting Tulsa owned establishments like McNellie's.

[Conan71]

OKC, I think it's resident myopia.  There's never been more options for entertainment in Tulsa and I still hear people saying: "There's nothing to do.  Tulsa is sooooo boring".

[Jeff P]

Which begs the question... what is it people want to do?  No matter if it's OKC, Tulsa, Dallas or Houston... no one ever goes into specifics.  I even hear it in Houston.  "There's not a whole lot to do around here."

So I ask, "what do you like to do for fun?"  Here is the common answer.  "Well, .... I don't know."  When people come back with that answer I just want to smack them.

Right on, okcpulse.

One of my biggest pet peeves is the "there's nothing to do here" garbage.

There is plenty to do, in both OKC and Tulsa.  

I actually had this very discussion with a co-worker who moved to Tulsa from Houston.  She was complaining about how there's "not much to do in Tulsa."  When she said she didn't really care about professional sports and I pressed her on what she could do in Houston that she couldn't do here, all I got was some stammering and blank stares.

[rdj]

People that say there is nothing to do are like ants marching to and from the colony.  They drive to the office the same way everyday, pull their car into the same parking spot, eat the same lunch at their desk, go home the same way, pull their car in the garage and their world closes just as the garage door hits the pavement.  Throughout their day they never have meaningful conversation with anyone around them to discover the great things that exist wherever they call home.

I pity them fools.

[Conan71]

People that say there is nothing to do are like ants marching to and from the colony.  They drive to the office the same way everyday, pull their car into the same parking spot, eat the same lunch at their desk, go home the same way, pull their car in the garage and their world closes just as the garage door hits the pavement.  Throughout their day they never have meaningful conversation with anyone around them to discover the great things that exist wherever they call home.

I pity them fools.

Reminds me of this scene from the Jack Lemmon classic: "Good Neighbor Sam".  Watch the clip to at least 1:12, the sheep appear again close to the end of the clip as well.  Great flick!

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/415507/Good-Neighbor-Sam-Movie-Clip-It-s-Like-Sheep.html

[TheArtist]

 Nothing to do.....

I have thought about this a lot and recently I have come up with one idea of what it really is.

On the one hand you can have lots of actual "things to do" like go to a museum, shop, dine, movie, show, park, clubs, sidewalk cafes, etc.  

But if they are all spread out and you have to drive everywhere you can and can generally only "do" one or two things at a time before you have decide to drive somewhere else to do say one more thing.  Boooring.

Buuut.  If you can go to one area and walk for blocks and blocks and do ALL of those things and more, while being with friends, enjoying people watching, good scenery, etc. in a superb, pedestrian friendly area.  Then it really feels like you have "something to do".

It just feels so different when your with a group of friends or family walking, with lots of other people around, going from place to place. And no a mall wont cut it, its a small, limited, shadow of the real thing.  Whether its downtown Disney, Santa Fe, or NYC, one of the things people really enjoy is both the scenery, the "things to do", people watching, and the walking while chatting with friends and family. 

Its not so much having this and that thing to do, its the experience of the journey along with it.  We don't have that yet.

I could even be more philisophical and say that what people really want is, being with lots of other people.  Driving around in a car and not seeing anyone but other cars, is depressing.  Everything here is so wastefully spread out.   I was driving to BA to work in a home there this week and its like... there is this huge highway, then swaths of grass on either side, then another road, then parking lots, then a business. Then from that business to the next is another parking lot, a ditch or green strip, a road, then another parking lot.  And you don't see any people. Just cars. Its so depressing.   Compare that to a good, pedestrian friendly urban space, whether its large or small, you have comparative miles worth of shops and buildings in just a block or two.  Lots of stuff to see. Then there are lots of people out and about. Its sooo much nicer and more enjoyable.  Its almost like we have forgotten how to be human beings.

Not that this is a perfect analogy for everyone and in every case. But I think there is a LOT of truth in it.