Taxing Internet Purchases

[nathanm]

It just points out how convoluted / insane the whole sales-tax thing is.

Not really. The goods change hands in Missouri in your scenario (presuming the seller contracts the shipper, as is customary with consumer goods), so why wouldn't that be the appropriate place to tax the sale?

[Red Arrow]

Not really. The goods change hands in Missouri in your scenario (presuming the seller contracts the shipper, as is customary with consumer goods), so why wouldn't that be the appropriate place to tax the sale?

However....
I  believe if the sales tax is lower in MO than OK, you legally owe the difference to OK.  Maybe not to the state but at least to the local sales tax.  The way the state gets around the words "sales tax" is to call it a "use tax".   Dang semantics.

Remember.... it's not your money.

[custosnox]

Okay, if you buy something in MO at a lower tax than if you bought it in OK and return to OK with it, than you owe the difference to OK, right?  So does that mean if I go somewhere with a higher tax rate and return to OK with it, than OK owes me the difference?

[Red Arrow]

Okay, if you buy something in MO at a lower tax than if you bought it in OK and return to OK with it, than you owe the difference to OK, right?  So does that mean if I go somewhere with a higher tax rate and return to OK with it, than OK owes me the difference?

Of course not.  You were foolish to buy somewhere with a higher tax.

[AquaMan]

It goes back to motivation. If you buy in another state to avoid paying a higher tax in OK and you consume or use that product in OK the state wants the difference in tax. If you pay more than an OK tax rate they don't care.

The states are silly to try and attract border business by offering lower taxes. I don't think they do so purposely. A city along a border may try to do so but even then its usually just a matter of lower taxation in smaller cities because they provide fewer services and thus benefit from border traffic.

Our states and cities in this region are so fixated on details of administration (keeping the doors open) and social issues (gays, guns, immigration), issues they have no hope of affecting, that they are missing an opportunity to regionalize or unify certain revenue producing activities.

Driving to Kansas to buy 6pt beer, to Arkansas for auto registration or Lousiana to register your boat are examples.

[guido911]

Our states and cities in this region are so fixated on details of administration (keeping the doors open) and social issues (gays, guns, immigration), issues they have no hope of affecting, that they are missing an opportunity to regionalize or unify certain revenue producing activities.

You mean those "social issues" that have constitutional implications? And trivializing immigration problems which has a profound impact on our economy weakens your argument.

[AquaMan]

You mean those "social issues" that have constitutional implications? And trivializing immigration problems which has a profound impact on our economy weakens your argument.

We're talking about how states are dealing with lowered sales tax revenues due to the bleeding off of taxable sales to the internet. As usual you bring your set of social howlings to the discussion to end it.

My argument is that while the barn burns we're rounding up all the Mexicans and gays for a hanging and making sure our guns are safe. Its silly pandering and is better dealt with in courts and Congress imo.

How exactly does spending an inordinate amount of time working against the unstoppable flow of humanity help our economic condition in this state? Do you think if we were able to immediately end illegal immigration and gay marriage that our tax base in OK would suddenly improve? Really?

[guido911]

We're talking about how states are dealing with lowered sales tax revenues due to the bleeding off of taxable sales to the internet. As usual you bring your set of social howlings to the discussion to end it.

My argument is that while the barn burns we're rounding up all the Mexicans and gays for a hanging and making sure our guns are safe. Its silly pandering and is better dealt with in courts and Congress imo.

How exactly does spending an inordinate amount of time working against the unstoppable flow of humanity help our economic condition in this state? Do you think if we were able to immediately end illegal immigration and gay marriage that our tax base in OK would suddenly improve? Really?

So illegal immigration is a problem not worth discussing. Why don't you go ahead and schedule for all of us the order of importance the issues facing this country. And as for what we are talking about in this thread, I FREAKIN STARTED this thread! So get off your high horse. And incidentally, you are the one that threw out that insipid suggestion that our state government is focusing on just social issues, which led to this thread spiraling.

As for that last question, who said anything about gay marriage (which I could care less about) or illegal immigration (which bleeds off millions of our tax dollars in services) would improve our tax base? Your suggestion that our government should essentially do nothing but focusing on raising sales taxes, as well as referring to illegal immigration as merely a "social issue", speaks volumes to the strength of your position.

I would like to know if there are any studies on the actual impact California's internet sales taxes would have on raising revenue. I mean, any improvement is important. But is it worth the loss of jobs or decrease in purchasing of hard to get products which I suspect will happen.

[AquaMan]

So illegal immigration is a problem not worth discussing. Why don't you go ahead and schedule for all of us the order of importance the issues facing this country. And as for what we are talking about in this thread, I FREAKIN STARTED this thread! So get off your high horse. And incidentally, you are the one that threw out that insipid suggestion that our state government is focusing on just social issues, which led to this thread spiraling.

As for that last question, who said anything about gay marriage (which I could care less about) or illegal immigration (which bleeds off millions of our tax dollars in services) would improve our tax base? Your suggestion that our government should essentially do nothing but focusing on raising sales taxes, as well as referring to illegal immigration as merely a "social issue", speaks volumes to the strength of your position.

I would like to know if there are any studies on the actual impact California's internet sales taxes would have on raising revenue. I mean, any improvement is important. But is it worth the loss of jobs or decrease in purchasing of hard to get products which I suspect will happen.

Let's see. Title of thread "Taxing Internet Purchases". Guido throws flame bomb "constitutional issues" and "immigration". You left out your favorite, "Abortion". Start your own threads on these subjects and you'll find no response from me, its fruitless to discuss them. And by all means never meander from your strategy of NEVER answering a question or addressing facts.

FYI I just ran across one of our former state legislators while shopping today. He had term limited out and decided he had had enough of state government. Why? He volunteered, Guido, VOLUNTEERED, that once his party had become in the minority he could not get any of his bills even read. He said they only wanted to pass bills about guns, gays, immigration and abortion. All subjects he thought were better addressed at a federal level or within the courts. His experience was so dismal he doesn't think OK has a chance to better its economic position for quite some time till moral crusaders like yourself and Sally Kern are in disgrace.

I hold his viewpoint, based on experience rather than rhetoric, in greater esteem than yours.

[guido911]

It goes back to motivation. If you buy in another state to avoid paying a higher tax in OK and you consume or use that product in OK the state wants the difference in tax. If you pay more than an OK tax rate they don't care.

The states are silly to try and attract border business by offering lower taxes. I don't think they do so purposely. A city along a border may try to do so but even then its usually just a matter of lower taxation in smaller cities because they provide fewer services and thus benefit from border traffic.

Our states and cities in this region are so fixated on details of administration (keeping the doors open) and social issues (gays, guns, immigration), issues they have no hope of affecting, that they are missing an opportunity to regionalize or unify certain revenue producing activities.

Driving to Kansas to buy 6pt beer, to Arkansas for auto registration or Lousiana to register your boat are examples.

This was your post I responded to. Where did I make "social issues" an issue prior to that post in this thread? You started this stupid distraction by throwing out flame bait "gays, guns, immigration" and for good measure abortion. What do those these have in common? Making light of them will trigger a response from the right which I believe you were wanting to do.

And for you, its all about raising taxes isn't it? I point out the tremendous burden illegal immigration places on Oklahoma taxpayers after you trivialized it for no damned reason and you couldn't give a smile about it.

Now I know what this thread is about. I use Amazon almost weekly to find items I cannot locate in this state. Can anyone tell me where I can get szechuan peppercorns or where I can buy Lou Malnatis pizza in this state? If I can't get it here, why should I pay an Oklahoma sales tax.

[AquaMan]

I have come to like your strategy. I believe I shall embrace it by not reading your latest post, or many of the previous posts, and responding with what is on the top of my mind.

It occurs to me you didn't actually start this subject, Conan did. You started this thread and think that somehow makes you more special than you are. It doesn't really.

It also occurs to me that Conan brought up immigration and liberal policies gone askew in California in both his original post and his repost onto this thread. Yet, that didn't offend you or merit response. Curious. Then we both agreed that crazies from both wings of organized parties have focused on moral and social issues that have nothing to do with the business of governing. I laid out a different premise that might work for states to overcome the failed tax strategies (none of which included increasing taxes, in fact eliminated or flat rated them) in a new digital world. Neither of those things piqued your ire. Curious indeed.

Doubtless you can read, just not part of the strategy I guess. Now lets see how it works. I'll post this and briefly scan your latest post and try to misunderstand it.

[AquaMan]

Do you think government should be run like a business? You can't answer direct questions so I'll do it for you, "Why certainly A-man, doesn't everyone?" Well no oh master (de)bater, they don't but let me ask you some other questions as us Welsh are prone to do.

What business would enmesh itself into lightweight moral issues related to God, guns, gays, immigration and abortion, while letting its basic revenue generator be usurped by its competitors? What did Disney do when faced with a large number of its employees coming from the ranks of gay America? What do businesses do when faced with operating issues that are totally unrelated to their mission statements or stockholders best interests? Do they suddenly decide to start producing products that are unprofitable but make them feel good? Do they hire lawyers and pr people whose primary commitments are to truth and justice?

This is working pretty well don't you think?

[nathanm]

And for you, its all about raising taxes isn't it? I point out the tremendous burden illegal immigration places on Oklahoma taxpayers after you trivialized it for no damned reason and you couldn't give a smile about it.

The CBO disagrees that there is a "tremendous burden" placed on any state where there have been studies on the subject conducted. Colorado, for example, nets at worst about $50 million in costs out of a $21 billion budget. So yes, there is an impact, but it's not by any means a "tremendous burden."

An Oklahoma example: In 2006, the Oklahoma Health Care Authority estimated it spent about $9.7 million on health care services for illegal aliens (80 percent of that was for childbirth). This is out of a budget of $3.1 billion, or about three tenths of one percent. Overall, less than 1% of Oklahoma's Medicaid budget goes to spending on illegal immigrants.

[guido911]

I have come to like your strategy. I believe I shall embrace it by not reading your latest post, or many of the previous posts, and responding with what is on the top of my mind.

It occurs to me you didn't actually start this subject, Conan did. You started this thread and think that somehow makes you more special than you are. It doesn't really.

It also occurs to me that Conan brought up immigration and liberal policies gone askew in California in both his original post and his repost onto this thread. Yet, that didn't offend you or merit response. Curious. Then we both agreed that crazies from both wings of organized parties have focused on moral and social issues that have nothing to do with the business of governing. I laid out a different premise that might work for states to overcome the failed tax strategies (none of which included increasing taxes, in fact eliminated or flat rated them) in a new digital world. Neither of those things piqued your ire. Curious indeed.

Doubtless you can read, just not part of the strategy I guess. Now lets see how it works. I'll post this and briefly scan your latest post and try to misunderstand it.

I didn't say I started this discussion, I started this thread. Oh, and where did I say I was special. Only that I know what this thread was supposed be about. And nice try at blaming someone other else for this flame war. I'll go back and look where Conan said gay rights, abortion, immigration, and guns was less important than sales tax policy. Same old waterboy.

As for ignoring a post of yours, so what? There was nothing new you brought to the discussion other than you bringing up abortion--which I mentioned.

Still waiting for your order of importance of policy questions our legislature should follow, so far its:

1.  Sales tax policy;
2.
3.
4.
.
.
.
.
100. Immigration;
101. Gun rights;
102. Gay marriage;
(the last three are obviously interchangeable)

O/T Should I pay Oklahoma sales taxes on products that are not sold in this state? If I am on vacation and happen to find an OU sweatshirt at 1/3 price of one state (say in unfriendly to Sooner nation Nebraska)  in this state, do I pay that tax? Seriously, I guess we will need to have an Oklahoma customs office opened up at every access point so we provide an officer a completed Customs Declaration form so we can pay a tariff. Here's a form so you can start preparing Oklahoma's version.

[guido911]

The CBO disagrees that there is a "tremendous burden" placed on any state where there have been studies on the subject conducted. Colorado, for example, nets at worst about $50 million in costs out of a $21 billion budget. So yes, there is an impact, but it's not by any means a "tremendous burden."

An Oklahoma example: In 2006, the Oklahoma Health Care Authority estimated it spent about $9.7 million on health care services for illegal aliens (80 percent of that was for childbirth). This is out of a budget of $3.1 billion, or about three tenths of one percent. Overall, less than 1% of Oklahoma's Medicaid budget goes to spending on illegal immigrants.

I don't want to squabble over the word "tremendous", mainly because I do not want to do a lot of research today. I did take a look at illegal immigration costs in Cali, and found that in 2004 it was more than $10B. I'd call that "tremendous", but that's just me.