(PROJECT) Boulder Bridge

[nathanm]

Keep your stuff out of my stuff? I thought we liked stuff? Isn't V2 supposed to buy us some more stuff? Perhaps even stuff that is connected to other stuff by the Boulder Bridge?

[Weatherdemon]

I noticed they were pouring some mighty think slabs o cement.
What's up with that?

I guess that will be the route for double loaded milk trucks, lol.

Seriously, is that bridge we will use to move tanks from the north and south sides of the west side for WWIII?

[Red Arrow]

I guess that will be the route for double loaded milk trucks, lol.

Seriously, is that bridge we will use to move tanks from the north and south sides of the west side for WWIII?

Maybe this bridge will last longer than 15 or 20 years.

[Weatherdemon]

Maybe this bridge will last longer than 15 or 20 years.

LOL, that it will!

[dsjeffries]

Maybe this bridge will last longer than 15 or 20 years.

The original Boulder Bridge that was torn down lasted much longer than 15 or 20 years, you know. It was built in 1929.

[Red Arrow]

The original Boulder Bridge that was torn down lasted much longer than 15 or 20 years, you know. It was built in 1929.

I didn't know the exact dates of the Boulder Bridge but they prove that structures can last longer than just a few decades.  The stuff we build now doesn't seem to make that grade.  How long did the Inner Dispersal Loop structures last until they needed the big make over?  Parts of South Memorial Drive that are south of 71st Street are in horrible condition and cannot be more than 30 years old.

[nathanm]

Poor maintenance has a lot to do with it, at least in the case of bridges. In other states, they actually remove the rust and repaint the bridges from time to time to keep the corrosion to an acceptable rate.

[Red Arrow]

Poor maintenance has a lot to do with it, at least in the case of bridges. In other states, they actually remove the rust and repaint the bridges from time to time to keep the corrosion to an acceptable rate.

I'll agree with maintenance of the steel but we can't even pour concrete that will last.  Also, my brother found some info in the mid 70s that basically required contractors to the State of Oklahoma to use inferior(compared to industry standards) asphalt in order to meet the "specs". 

[nathanm]

I'll agree with maintenance of the steel but we can't even pour concrete that will last.  Also, my brother found some info in the mid 70s that basically required contractors to the State of Oklahoma to use inferior(compared to industry standards) asphalt in order to meet the "specs". 

South Memorial seemed fine when I lived out there, aside from the lack of rebar tying adjacent slabs together. When was that concrete laid down?

If we really wanted to make our concrete roads last, we'd put a half inch of asphalt on top as a wear layer. Diamond grinding, which seems to be the new hotness here, just smooths out the already deteriorated concrete, which then chips away at the slab boundaries at a rapid clip. Seal it with asphalt after grinding, and that wouldn't happen. The downside to the asphalt wear layer is that you've got to come back and redo it every 4 to 5 years. It's a much faster and cheaper process than the otherwise necessary concrete work, though. The milling and asphalt laying can be done as a continuous operation. Out in Arizona they do on the order of 20 lane miles a day with a single crew. I forget the exact number, it's been a couple of years since I was looking at it in any detail. They actually reuse the just-milled aggregate, so the only input required other than fuel for the trucks is the asphalt itself.

[Red Arrow]

South Memorial seemed fine when I lived out there, aside from the lack of rebar tying adjacent slabs together. When was that concrete laid down?

If we really wanted to make our concrete roads last, we'd put a half inch of asphalt on top as a wear layer. Diamond grinding, which seems to be the new hotness here, just smooths out the already deteriorated concrete, which then chips away at the slab boundaries at a rapid clip. Seal it with asphalt after grinding, and that wouldn't happen. The downside to the asphalt wear layer is that you've got to come back and redo it every 4 to 5 years. It's a much faster and cheaper process than the otherwise necessary concrete work, though. The milling and asphalt laying can be done as a continuous operation. Out in Arizona they do on the order of 20 lane miles a day with a single crew. I forget the exact number, it's been a couple of years since I was looking at it in any detail. They actually reuse the just-milled aggregate, so the only input required other than fuel for the trucks is the asphalt itself.

Make a field trip to the stretch between 71st and 91st.  It won't tear up your suspension in one or two passes but it is not in good shape unless your standard is really low.

Woodland Hills was built in the mid 70s.  Memorial south of 71st was not 4-laned for several years after that.  I would say that 1980 is the earliest that section could be.  I don't remember with certainty right now whether the first installment of widening south of 71st went farther south than 91st but I don't think it did.

It shouldn't be necessary to put asphalt on top of new concrete.  The concrete, if properly done, should wear a lot better than asphalt.  Asphalt moves around under heavy loads.   Arkansas rebuilt most of I-40 several years ago.  I saw sections where they were actually putting down a thick layer of asphalt for the foundation of the concrete.   Asphalt over a concrete surface refinished by grinding makes sense as long as a thick enough layer of asphalt is applied.

[nathanm]

It shouldn't be necessary to put asphalt on top of new concrete.

Sure, it's not necessary. After all, S Memorial is only now (apparently) getting anywhere near as bad as, say, Yale between 21st and 31st. It has been almost four years since I've been out there, so it certainly could have changed. Traffic is so heavy I wouldn't be surprised. I don't recall a bunch of potholes, though. Has that changed, or is the roughness just due to misaligned slabs like I-40 in Arkansas used to have?

The thing about the asphalt overlay is that the asphalt protects the concrete from the weather and surface damage, making it last pretty much indefinitely, barring stupid drainage problems washing out the base layers underneath the concrete.

[Red Arrow]

Sure, it's not necessary. After all, S Memorial is only now (apparently) getting anywhere near as bad as, say, Yale between 21st and 31st. It has been almost four years since I've been out there, so it certainly could have changed. Traffic is so heavy I wouldn't be surprised. I don't recall a bunch of potholes, though. Has that changed, or is the roughness just due to misaligned slabs like I-40 in Arkansas used to have?

The thing about the asphalt overlay is that the asphalt protects the concrete from the weather and surface damage, making it last pretty much indefinitely, barring stupid drainage problems washing out the base layers underneath the concrete.

I went to Sears today by going up (and back) Memorial.  The section between about 93rd and the entrance from Memorial to Woodland Hills has mostly edge and corner damage to the concrete blocks. There are numerous sections with cracked blocks and general roughness but the entire area is not trashed.  Some sections are patched and most of them will catch your attention but not knock your front end out of alignment.   I think the foundation is probably OK except for a few areas which would need some blocks replaced.  Then, an asphalt overlay would probably be good for several years.  I wouldn't say the slabs were so much misaligned as the edges were broken out and quickly patched.  I understand the theory of the asphalt protecting the concrete but have driven enough roads with an asphalt overlay with cracks in the asphalt matching the original concrete segments that I am not so sure it always works as promised.

[nathanm]

I understand the theory of the asphalt protecting the concrete but have driven enough roads with an asphalt overlay with cracks in the asphalt matching the original concrete segments that I am not so sure it always works as promised.

If the concrete slabs aren't stable, it will crack the asphalt. Same goes for just going too long before repaving.

[Red Arrow]

If the concrete slabs aren't stable, it will crack the asphalt. Same goes for just going too long before repaving.

I think we need someone with some real world Civil Engineering experience to take this conversation any further.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think we need someone with some real world Civil Engineering experience to take this conversation any further.

Won't get much of that here in Oklahoma...maybe we can get a Colorado CE to talk - they seem to use asphalt successfully.


Base for concrete - I-40 in Texas, around Amarillo, was being redone one time in the very early 80's when I had occasion to drive through there.  They had a gravel base, but then put down a layer of asphalt as cushion for the concrete.  Then poured concrete on top.  Drove through last summer and while I couldn't even begin to guess where that section was, most of the road has been redone again, but is much better than OK parts of the road.

It is not that difficult - Germany builds roads well.  At about double the cost.  The pavement is noticeably thicker - about double.  We intentionally choose to build that way.  We are willing to "settle" for much less to just get it 'good enough'.  It really is that simple.


You can go to many of the little towns around northeast Oklahoma and find a side-street (neighborhood) road system that has been in place for almost 80 years and is still functional, and will probably last another 40 to 50 years without major overhaul.  Has required VERY little maintenance compared to the way we do side streets today - essentially none comparatively.  Has built in traffic calming for 25 mph traffic - so that NONE of those ridiculous speed bump additions are needed.  And yet, we ran away from that as fast as we could when the asphalt boys came to town to sell us their bill of goods (kind of like the gypsy asphalt guys the operate out of Holdenville area today).

But that road system today would sure cut back on the asphalt boys revenue....