No BS Question

[patric]

Upscale. 

[TheArtist]

  I don't see any pretentiousness, especially when you know the businesses and areas/customers.

I think these names are very helpful because you immediately can picture the area being talked about versus saying "Let's go hang out in the area on the north side of downtown", or "the area just to the east of downtown".  Say Blue Dome, and I can immediately picture all that is there,  Brady Arts District, and I can see all of that too.

Now, if all these areas had been connected together better from the get go, this division may not have happened.  But you don't at this point, walk from say the Brady Arts to Greenwood to the Blue Dome.  The "gaps" in the fabric had a lot to do with how the different names have come about.  If the fabric had been more consistent like they often are in larger cities, then yes, one could see how it would be absurd to pick apart such small "land size wise" areas and make them distinct. But they are separate now, and they have been labeled so.  You can walk for block after block after block in say NYC and it's all one "area", but thats just it.. its all one relatively distinct area, there aren't the gaps like here.  These separate, small places in Tulsa aren't one area yet lol.  Hopefully someday.    

[Conan71]

I think we are talking right passed each other on this. I understand growth/development. To me, it's this: "Ooooh, I'm going to Brady District" [pinky raised holding martini glass] "so I can't make it across the street to Blue Dome". Again, where I hail, going to Soulard or the "Hill" or the "Central West End" or even "The Landing" actually means something. Not only is there economic development in those areas (along with political forces at work), which is apparently the reason for these "districts" in your view, but also ethnic , cultural, and social significance as well.

Maybe its just the mentality that some have, like being a midtowner versus a southie. I have heard from those in midtown say, "I would never live in South Tulsa because I am a midtown sort of a person". Really? Tell me how different the people are on the other side of 41st street. That's the pretentiousness or "I'm special" I am getting at.

It's not an identity thing for me per se.  I live in mid-town but don't really consider myself as a "mid-towner".  I'm a Tulsan without a sub-set, I guess.

I used to live at 105th & Yale.  When I lived out there, I usually ate and did recreational things out south rather than mid-town due to convenience more than anything.

Now that I live about 80 blocks north of there, downtown and midtown destinations are more convenient for my needs.  There are quite a few places I like to eat or shop out south, but the idea of commuting that way becomes somewhat of a disincentive when I've got other options closer to where I live or at least it takes less traffic asspain on surface streets.  I do admit I like the urban feel and look of Cherry St. or the various developing downtown districts than I do all the relatively new construction out south.

I can honestly say if I were to move from where I live now, it would likely be closer in to downtown rather than much further south simply because I'm used to the offerings and conveniences of mid-town.

[guido911]

I think these names are very helpful because you immediately can picture the area being talked about versus saying "Let's go hang out in the area on the north side of downtown", or "the area just to the east of downtown".  Say Blue Dome, and I can immediately picture all that is there,  Brady Arts District, and I can see all of that too.

That's kinda my point about pretentiousness. How really far apart is Blue Dome from Brady? And seriously, how different are the people? And how different is the mental picture--one has a blue domed building? Does the other still have a bunch of run-down looking warehouse buildings nearby with a damned jail nearby?

Head towards T, RA, and myself (inteller too, but he's in a more prime spot and too busy loving it to check in much). We manage just fine without calling 105st & Memorial "Spirit Bank Hell Hole", despite being able to picture what it looks like. But kidding aside, same goes for the booming economic activity at 71st, from memorial to garnett. I bet mucho more dollars are exchanged there than in the "blue dome", yet it manages to get by with that sexy nickname "restaurant row".  Just food for thought from someone that avoids downtown like the plague, and midtown because those people smell. T said so.

[TulsaRufnex]

That's kinda my point about pretentiousness. How really far apart is Blue Dome from Brady?

It's on the other side of the tracks... literally... not a bad walk from the new ballpark to McNellies or JoeMammas across one set of railroad tracks, but not all that walkable (for most Tulsans) from Caz's Chowhouse to Blue Dome-- and I've made the walk.

Ten years ago, the area around the Blue Dome was sparse and not a place you'd want to walk around at night.
Five years ago, if I ate at McNellies, I wouldn't have considered the option to walk from there to Cain's or The Old Lady on Brady... just drive and park.  repeat as needed.
These days, there's more "urban density" which translates into more night time foot traffic which means "safety in numbers."

Pretentiousness has little to do with it.  These districts are two isolated areas that have both improved alot over the past couple of years... it wouldn't surprise me at all to start hearing real estate professionals refer to the area as Brady/Blue Dome in the coming years... and, unless someone else remembers differently, "Blue Dome" is a relatively new nickname for that area...

And seriously, how different are the people? And how different is the mental picture--one has a blue domed building? Does the other still have a bunch of run-down looking warehouse buildings nearby with a damned jail nearby?

No difference in mental picture.  Several of the run-down looking warehouse buildings in Brady have either been rehabbed or replaced with new construction.

Both Brady and Blue Dome have a mixture of upscale and dive bars, but Blue Dome is primarily restaurant/bar focused.  Brady has the Brady Theatre, Tribune lofts and now alot more residential and a hotel, and has historically been considered an arts district (there's that pesky word again).  But Blue Dome doesn't have the Borden plant and David L Moss/Salvation Army sitting next door on Denver... I'm dumbfounded to understand why anyone thought it'd be a good idea to have a dairy plant and county jail locate directly across the street from a historic Tulsa theater.

But kidding aside, same goes for the booming economic activity at 71st, from memorial to garnett. I bet mucho more dollars are exchanged there than in the "blue dome", yet it manages to get by with that sexy nickname "restaurant row".  Just food for thought from someone that avoids downtown like the plague, and midtown because those people smell. T said so.

Well, there's certainly booming retail activity at 71st between Memorial and Garnett, but I find it ironic that the same people who hate the "hustle and bustle" of downtown fail to concede that this is a traffic-ridden, unwalkable area.  Suburban-style big box shopping has its place, but I really enjoy "restaurant row."  Especially because it didn't exist when I moved here in 2006.

Although there's never been a shortage of pretentiousness in this city IMHO, I also get frustrated at the "let downtown die" people.  There's plenty of economic activity going on downtown during the day, yet after 5 or 6pm, it had become a ghost town.  And there are real residential neighborhoods that border downtown.  Neighborhoods that are ill-served when the "invisible" market (combined with city zoning) dictates that "best use" for downtown property is surface parking.

And urban snobbery is certainly not endemic to Tulsa... you can hear the refrain, "bomb the suburbs" in urban areas all across the country.  But to me, what really takes the cake is the suburban "aginers" in Tulsa who consistently vote NO on anything that benefits downtown or urban transit, yet will consistently SUPPORT costly road construction that only serves to perpetuate the parking lot known as 71st Street.      

[guido911]

The soccer man scores with an informative post. And 71st street does suck--as does Memorial between 91st & 111th, and soon will 91st & Yale. My feelings about downtown are one-sided, mainly because I perceive those that push for development either live nearby, are self-interested, or want to go back in time. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the majority of Tulsa's money spending population lives near there, and that's where the focus of development should be. I don't know. But I will stick to my guns on what I consider pretentiousness of the many districts all within a square mile or so of one another, which MW online defines in part as "an exaggerated sense of one's importance", synonymous with "haughtiness". If that does not describe at least the "Brady arts district" or "The Pearl", I do not know what is. 

[carltonplace]

The soccer man scores with an informative post. And 71st street does suck--as does Memorial between 91st & 111th, and soon will 91st & Yale. My feelings about downtown are one-sided, mainly because I perceive those that push for development either live nearby, are self-interested, or want to go back in time. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the majority of Tulsa's money spending population lives near there, and that's where the focus of development should be. I don't know. But I will stick to my guns on what I consider pretentiousness of the many districts all within a square mile or so of one another, which MW online defines in part as "an exaggerated sense of one's importance", synonymous with "haughtiness". If that does not describe at least the "Brady arts district" or "The Pearl", I do not know what is. 

Different strokes. I get the same "haughtiness" from suburban folks when they speak of the perceived superiority of their public schools, or their "more for the money" snout houses. I don't see the Blue Dome as haughty...I see a place that has come a long way in five years still needs a ton of development.

I like living downtown because I can get around on my bike and leave my car at home...I dislike going to southeast Tulsa because I can't stand sitting still in my car (but I have to get to High Gravity anyway). I get that most people prefer their cars, I get that people from the burbs see downtown and surrounding areas as run down, scary or maybe too diverse. They should take a good look at 71st and Memorial and see how run down it looks.

[TheArtist]

That's kinda my point about pretentiousness. How really far apart is Blue Dome from Brady? And seriously, how different are the people? And how different is the mental picture--one has a blue domed building? Does the other still have a bunch of run-down looking warehouse buildings nearby with a damned jail nearby?

Does it really matter how far apart they are?  Has anyone ever implied that there is any difference between the people in one area or another?  The difference in the mental picture is that I see this set of businesses/entertainment options/ events/ living options, etc, in one area then a different set in another lol.  

If my neighborhood is small and has one name and the next ones nearby are larger and called by other names, doesn't mean that any of them are trying to be pretentious or that the people are any different.  They are just descriptors that you can use to visualize one from the other.

When I and others thought of the name Deco District for that area of downtown, none of us in any way shape or form was trying to be pretentious. It was more about advertising, promoting, creating a positive distinction.  The people who live in this area and who run and own this group of businesses, restaurants, and shops wanted to get together and see what we could do to make our little neighborhood/area/district better, keeping in mind that by doing so we will also hopefully help all of downtown and even all of Tulsa by doing so.  We also try to coordinate with the other areas like the Blue Dome and Brady, like the "Trolley" for instance.  We have all chipped in to help get it going and we think it will help us all out.  We are working to create new events in our area that will, by bringing more people and attention to our area, will help our businesses, and of course help the whole city by having more  "fun things to see and do".

 Who have you heard, in one of these downtown districts, be pretentious about their area anyway?  And of those examples, if you have any, should their opinions blanketly be thrown on everyone in those areas?  From what I know we all know that it's best we get along and work to help each other.  We are happy when any area, aaaanywhere in Tulsa, or district improves.  How is that pretentious?

[TulsaRufnex]

 Who have you heard, in one of these downtown districts, be pretentious about their area anyway?

I've heard many.

I'm frustrated at those of the "new urbanist" activist mindset teaming up with the moneyed "Children of the Oil" to propose taxpayers assistance in funding development ideas that resemble an SE Hinton novel on steroids.  Do "man-made islands in the Arkansas River" or the summer Olympics in Tulsa ring a bell?

God forbid I be able to shop at a downtown WalMart or Target... guess my money is better spent in Sand Springs or Tulsa Hills...

If/when All Souls Unitarian moves downtown, I guess that's totally acceptable for the urban politically correct (surface parking and all)... but if another big box retailer moves downtown... OMG, it's going to ruin that "district's" fragile eco-system and, most importantly, the utopian plans we've made for a new urbanist "neighborhood" that doesn't exist (and never did, as far as I can tell)...

But I enjoy watching from the sidelines when the usual suspects pay $10mil for Bing Thom to tell us that the IDL is a noose that strangles downtown Tulsa...

Oi!

[AquaMan]

That's an interesting mixed bag of thought there. Do you also feel frustrated when "children of the oil" (that's very good btw) team up with a casino to spend taxpayer money to put water into a south Tulsa stretch of the river? Bartlett says its a good idea and can be done in 5 years.

I'm an old urbanist and I really don't relish having a big box locating downtown unless its a grocer or Costco. Its bad enough to have QT's everywhere. Must everything be so homogenized? I like the old neighborhoods, the old buildings because I grew up around them. I llike their style even when recreated with modern materials. Its a style preference, not a pretension. It bothers me when more current suburban lifestyles invade this area and bring their suburban preferences for food and shopping with them. If I'm pretentious, then they are bullies.

The whole discussion seems silly. You don't think pretension exists in south Tulsa gate communities, that snooty little shopping center off Yale and the Creek expressway? Or the original Riverwalk advertising that proclaimed it the Utica Square of the South? Or even restaurant row on 71st?

People just like what they live in and around. Leave it at that.

[Gaspar]

Interesting to see how people have very different interpretations of a word.  "District" to me is an antiquated term with very negative connotations.  I nether see it as pretentious or positive in a branding sense.

District literally means to divide, hinder or distrain.  It was an identifier used historically to denote areas or neighborhoods that "contained" a specific dominant culture, race, economic activity, or other group characteristic.  In the new-hipster lexicon it is used frequently, and ineffectively for the same purpose.  Some feel that the term sounds definitive and established.  Marketers like it because if you call something "The Art District" for example, people will naturally assume that is where all of the art is supposed to be.

In our attempt to identify ourselves with larger more complex cities we like to adopt these terms without fully exploring their history and purpose. "Districts" are typically not an organic free grouping of individuals.  Most (but not all) of the time they were established as an administrative division, created by some form of government action designed to segregate a population, group, or economic activity.  In most cities the term "District" has been dropped or replaced by other more inclusive terms like "Center" that still establishes the idea of concentration without the concept of exclusion or division.



 

[JCnOwasso]

I've heard many.

I'm frustrated at those of the "new urbanist" activist mindset teaming up with the moneyed "Children of the Oil" to propose taxpayers assistance in funding development ideas that resemble an SE Hinton novel on steroids.  Do "man-made islands in the Arkansas River" or the summer Olympics in Tulsa ring a bell?

God forbid I be able to shop at a downtown WalMart or Target... guess my money is better spent in Sand Springs or Tulsa Hills...

I have been to many "downtowns" across the country and I have yet to see one that includes a Target or Walmart.  It is not a feasible location for a business like that.  Now I have seen a CVS on many corners and the occasional trader joes or safeway.  And if you want to put those downtown, I am all for it.  

As for Bartlett and the idea of water in the river... What happens when the drought continues and water in the river is no longer a smart decision?  What happens when the a low level dam just creates a giant pool of stagnant disease filled water?

But in regards to districts?  We are not looking at The Hunger Games... We are not selected a person from each district to battle royal (though... great idea).  I use district as nothing more than a way to describe an area of town.  Greenwood,  Brady,  Deco, Blue Dome, Pearl... remove the district don't remove the district, it is merely a way to identify one part from another to people who are new to town.  You can't say "The Brady" because there is a The Brady, You can't just say the "Blue Dome" because there is a Blue Dome. 

I don't even know what the heck I am trying to say.

[carltonplace]

I've heard many.

I'm frustrated at those of the "new urbanist" activist mindset teaming up with the moneyed "Children of the Oil" to propose taxpayers assistance in funding development ideas that resemble an SE Hinton novel on steroids.  Do "man-made islands in the Arkansas River" or the summer Olympics in Tulsa ring a bell?

God forbid I be able to shop at a downtown WalMart or Target... guess my money is better spent in Sand Springs or Tulsa Hills...

If/when All Souls Unitarian moves downtown, I guess that's totally acceptable for the urban politically correct (surface parking and all)... but if another big box retailer moves downtown... OMG, it's going to ruin that "district's" fragile eco-system and, most importantly, the utopian plans we've made for a new urbanist "neighborhood" that doesn't exist (and never did, as far as I can tell)...

But I enjoy watching from the sidelines when the usual suspects pay $10mil for Bing Thom to tell us that the IDL is a noose that strangles downtown Tulsa...

Oi!

Why do we have to accept a big box suburban style Wal*Mart or Target in our Downtown when these two companies have examples of urban friendly design? I would not be against a Target that melted into the urban landscape.

Check out this Seattle Target:

[TheArtist]

I've heard many.

I'm frustrated at those of the "new urbanist" activist mindset teaming up with the moneyed "Children of the Oil" to propose taxpayers assistance in funding development ideas that resemble an SE Hinton novel on steroids.  Do "man-made islands in the Arkansas River" or the summer Olympics in Tulsa ring a bell?

God forbid I be able to shop at a downtown WalMart or Target... guess my money is better spent in Sand Springs or Tulsa Hills...

If/when All Souls Unitarian moves downtown, I guess that's totally acceptable for the urban politically correct (surface parking and all)... but if another big box retailer moves downtown... OMG, it's going to ruin that "district's" fragile eco-system and, most importantly, the utopian plans we've made for a new urbanist "neighborhood" that doesn't exist (and never did, as far as I can tell)...

But I enjoy watching from the sidelines when the usual suspects pay $10mil for Bing Thom to tell us that the IDL is a noose that strangles downtown Tulsa...

Oi!

Your welcome to come as my guest to one of the Deco District meetings.  You won't hear anyone talking about islands in the river or the Olympics coming to Tulsa and doubt that if there were a show of hands that anyone there would have wanted them or voted for either.  Most of us aren't new urban activists or "monied oil" either.  

I don't mind big box stores at all and wouldn't  at all mind more downtown.  I am however more focused on encouraging small local businesses to grow and expandand... to perhaps become big chains themselves some day.  I would also like the same consideration be taken into account when zoning for good urban pedestrian/transit friendly design as we do for good suburban car friendly design.  Each has a different set of "best pratices" and I think it would be helpful to us all if we could be a city that offers some of both versus being a city that makes it illegal in most of the city to do good urban design while actively promoting car centric desisn, and then only have one small island where we say "if good urban design happens it happens, let the free market decide".  Either let it be "free market" everywhere. or give as much consideration to good urban design zoning laws in at least some small areas, as you do good suburban design zoning laws in the rest of the city.  

[cannon_fodder]

Three pages to complain about adding the word "district" to neighborhood branding efforts? It is an easy way to signify a location and either the things affiliated with it or the things you want associated (not necessarily from the name itself).  Add "district" or not... it is like adding "ville" or "new" to a city name.  "I'm going to Art Deco" just sounds odd, but "I'm going to the Blue Dome" sounds fine to me.

Men.


Pacific Heights
French Quarter
The Garden District
Uptown
The Financial District
Height Ashbury
SoHo
The pearl District (Portland)
Wrigleyville
Power and Light District
The River walk