Keystone dam broken?

[carltonplace]

Reading for comprehension... re-read my post; I said I absolutely love the people of Tulsa (I married one), the city itself is in a great, centrally located part of the country, the climate for the most part is great, and there is a TON on the plus side for this city.  Growing up outside Cook County however, it disgusted me how just a handful of people actually run Chicago; I see a lot of the same "corruption" and self serving leadership here.  Additionally, I now see the city simply chasing (and copying) whatever OKC is doing.  Tulsa used to be a leader, not a follower.

And yes, I voted for all the amateur athletic venues in Savage's proposals.  It was a unique concept at the time and Tulsa, being centrally located, could have drawn big numbers to national events.  There are quite a few cities making MILLIONS from amateur athletic venues and you don't have to look any further than Frisco, Texas to see results.  Try getting a hotel room down there when there is a soccer tourney or hockey tourney in that town.  Parents won't always spend money on themselves to go to concerts, but they'll spend BOATLOADS on their kids sports.

And back to the dam dams; why didn't the city simply allow one of the sand companies to set up a micro operation on the west bank of Zink Lake to pull sand on a more consistent basis?  Guess nobody with a sand company was connected to the right people..........

That's better. Much less flame.

[Conan71]

And back to the dam dams; why didn't the city simply allow one of the sand companies to set up a micro operation on the west bank of Zink Lake to pull sand on a more consistent basis?  Guess nobody with a sand company was connected to the right people..........

Saluki- They used to dredge just off the 21st St. bridge and just south of the Jenks bridge.  The concrete plant was taken out in Jenks so that is self-explanitory, no idea why they quit dredging at 21st.  I'm thinking they were still dredging after the Zink dam was constructed.

[AquaMan]

Saluki- They used to dredge just off the 21st St. bridge and just south of the Jenks bridge.  The concrete plant was taken out in Jenks so that is self-explanitory, no idea why they quit dredging at 21st.  I'm thinking they were still dredging after the Zink dam was constructed.

According to Chandler Sand that operated around here for several generations, the quality and nature of the sand is the answer. The sand companies have moved farther and farther downstream since the nature of the sand changed when the Keystone Dam was built. The Zink lake sand has too many impurities due to metro runoff in that area. The last dredger there was a disastrous effort by RPA to keep a channel in the lake. Nobody would buy that sand anyway.

The sand plant at Sand Springs is marginal and has fewer users for its products (kind of like a paid for car that still runs but not very well).

Saluki, I understand your frustration and suspicions, honestly I do. The low water dam process was flawed IMO. But this was not a case of influence.

[Vision 2025]

Saluki- They used to dredge just off the 21st St. bridge and just south of the Jenks bridge.  The concrete plant was taken out in Jenks so that is self-explanitory, no idea why they quit dredging at 21st.  I'm thinking they were still dredging after the Zink dam was constructed.

The dredge purchased by RPA was damaged in a storm but that is not the true reason it did not work.  Dredging at Zink was problematic from day one as the hard-pan botton prevented a deep dredging operation and the lack of access on the West bank limited any stockpile and processing options.

Today's bars in the river are not believed to be contaminated (sand is essentially impervious ground up rock) but are of such a poor gradation (the good stuff has already been harvested) to be of limited commercial use and again the same problem exists for access and processing facility locations and transport to anouther location for processing is not cost effective also the quantity in the lake is actually quite limited so the cost per yard or ton harvested would be well above any commercial rates.  

The current plan utilizes the majority of these coarse sands as well as much of the rubble located downstream of the dam to construct the base of the flume and fill the fountain area. 

[Vision 2025]

And back to the dam dams; why didn't the city simply allow one of the sand companies to set up a micro operation on the west bank of Zink Lake to pull sand on a more consistent basis?  Guess nobody with a sand company was connected to the right people..........

RPA has tried repeatedly, including this year.  The sand that is present in the lake is not of a commercially viable quality nor quantity to provide for a self sustaining removal.  However; if you wish to pay a sand company to remove it they will, gladly. 

The current proposal utilizes this sand and rubble for necessary project fill, thus removing the problem so that the proposed new gates will be able to pass new accumulations during high flows without having to reduce the existing build up which would be problematic by flow management alone.

[Vision 2025]

I like it. But beware- this ain't Maryland and RPA is not your friend. Three things come to mind:

1.  You got some guts to bring this out in the midst of one of Oklahoma's worst droughts since the depression! I like that.

2. You can expect that most of the usage will be from outside of the local area. Locals will scoff at the thought of flipping a kayak in this river. They think they might dissolve from the perceived pollution. And that is one of the favorite areas for fishermen.

3. You may have difficulty getting it insured. Fast water, big boulders and light weight kayaks with kids in them means huge premiums.

We and the consultant team fully understand this is not Maryland and that is a pumped facility, much like what OKC has in MAPS 3.

If there is never a boater to ever utilize the flume, that's fine because what it will provide is a safe place to be very near the water in a variety of flow conditions which studies and public comments have said to be a strongly desired feature.

1.  We can't regulate the climate, when it became time for a decision the materials were presented... thanks for the support!

2.  The usage study (privately funded and developed by an experienced consultant with no connection the project) indicated the majority of users would be from a 2 hour drive time.
3.  Actually you are backwards on this one.  If there are ever commercial operations the insurance costs are less than you would expect because the venue is strictly flow controlled up untill the point that it is closed due to high flows in the river.

As we have previously discussed on river topics all direct river experience is valued.  If you have not already seen the materials, please consider this an offer to coordinate a presentation/discussion.

[AquaMan]

We and the consultant team fully understand this is not Maryland and that is a pumped facility, much like what OKC has in MAPS 3.

If there is never a boater to ever utilize the flume, that's fine because what it will provide is a safe place to be very near the water in a variety of flow conditions which studies and public comments have said to be a strongly desired feature.

1.  We can't regulate the climate, when it became time for a decision the materials were presented... thanks for the support!

2.  The usage study (privately funded and developed by an experienced consultant with no connection the project) indicated the majority of users would be from a 2 hour drive time.
3.  Actually you are backwards on this one.  If there are ever commercial operations the insurance costs are less than you would expect because the venue is strictly flow controlled up untill the point that it is closed due to high flows in the river.

As we have previously discussed on river topics all direct river experience is valued.  If you have not already seen the materials, please consider this an offer to coordinate a presentation/discussion.

What I mean that "this is not Maryland" is more than the way that particular operation is set up. Truth is people in that area are more avid kayakers and watersport enthusiasts than in this part of the country. Just google kayak livery or rentals and note where they are. High usage in the upper midwest, north east and east coast also the near west. This is plains country. Hard sell.

1.I admire your chutzpa for bringing it out during a drought and no water in the river for months. Even if the decision making process demanded it PR wise this is questionable timing. Who is your PR firm? If you say RPA, well.....not surprised.

2.A second opinion on your usage study? They may have told you what they thought you wanted to hear. I'm talking from experience that the majority of your market is outside Tulsa at 1hr 45minutes away (OKC). Tulsans will be curious but a hard sell to get sizable numbers to participate. Actually, that is a good thing for Tulsa.

3.I'll hold tight on this as well. In Maryland or Minnesota there are lots of insureds to spread the risk to. One operation in OK directed towards young families in a state where the dreaded Blue/Green algae is everywhere and sits below the nastiest part of the river, may not be considered low risk.

However, not trying to be a crank. I hope I'm wrong on all counts and it is well received.

[AquaMan]

The dredge purchased by RPA was damaged in a storm but that is not the true reason it did not work.  Dredging at Zink was problematic from day one as the hard-pan botton prevented a deep dredging operation and the lack of access on the West bank limited any stockpile and processing options.

Today's bars in the river are not believed to be contaminated (sand is essentially impervious ground up rock) but are of such a poor gradation (the good stuff has already been harvested) to be of limited commercial use and again the same problem exists for access and processing facility locations and transport to anouther location for processing is not cost effective also the quantity in the lake is actually quite limited so the cost per yard or ton harvested would be well above any commercial rates.  

Bob Chandler disagreed. His company mined here for decades and he investigated buying the dredged sand from Zink. He told me that because the river is now hydraulic, with regular releases, the sand is too sugary between SS and Tulsa. The sand in Zink is contaminated with the runoff from city streets, lawn fertilizer and animal feces (dogs/geese). Since the lake holds the water over time it settles down with the sand. It would require cleansing. That was confirmed with the only study I ever saw done on this part of the river in the mid nineties which showed high concentrations of fertilizer and animal feces mostly around the 15th street and 21st street drains.

There is always plenty of sand in Zink lake. There are lots of different types of dredgers as well. RPA was unsuited to choose the right operation from what I've read. Hey mistakes are made. But the reality of Zink can't be ignored. It holds sand, pollutants and trash.

When the water is up and fast its no big deal and disperses. When the water is low and slow its nasty.

[AquaMan]

As we have previously discussed on river topics all direct river experience is valued.  If you have not already seen the materials, please consider this an offer to coordinate a presentation/discussion.

Yeah, well I support this effort but can't help but feel a bit betrayed by those involved with it. Even though RPA finds me persona non grata, I helped in trying to get the river issue passed that included a similar feature. Mr Smith and I discussed the flume idea particularly so that the river would be interconnected instead of separate lakes. That was so I could take kayaks/canoes through the dams.

I spent a lot of time learning this river, its history and its operation. Maybe not as much as you Kirby, but I have spent much time persuading others on this forum and elsewhere that we should be using the river rather than only developing around it. I spent a lot of my own money to do just that using first airboats, then pontoons and most recently have organized kayak and canoe trips. And now you welcome my experience?

No offense, and good luck. I might have to pass on promoting this one.

[Conan71]

What I mean that "this is not Maryland" is more than the way that particular operation is set up. Truth is people in that area are more avid kayakers and watersport enthusiasts than in this part of the country. Just google kayak livery or rentals and note where they are. High usage in the upper midwest, north east and east coast also the near west. This is plains country. Hard sell.

1.I admire your chutzpa for bringing it out during a drought and no water in the river for months. Even if the decision making process demanded it PR wise this is questionable timing. Who is your PR firm? If you say RPA, well.....not surprised.

2.A second opinion on your usage study? They may have told you what they thought you wanted to hear. I'm talking from experience that the majority of your market is outside Tulsa at 1hr 45minutes away (OKC). Tulsans will be curious but a hard sell to get sizable numbers to participate. Actually, that is a good thing for Tulsa.

3.I'll hold tight on this as well. In Maryland or Minnesota there are lots of insureds to spread the risk to. One operation in OK directed towards young families in a state where the dreaded Blue/Green algae is everywhere and sits below the nastiest part of the river, may not be considered low risk.

However, not trying to be a crank. I hope I'm wrong on all counts and it is well received.

Field of dreams applies here.  Build it and they will come.  I think if more people felt there was a somewhat safe and controlled way to use the river for kayaking, they would.  As it is, all they know of river navigation is people drowning going over the LWD or seeing TRC members out for a morning or evening row.  They don't think on the water recreation applies to them.  Put a specific feature in and I believe you would be surprised at the usage and interest it will create. 

Turkey Mountain, even a few years ago was no place I would have been caught dead hiking or biking.  The image was it was a meeting place for clandestine gay affairs or hoodlums hiding out in the woods smoking pot and drinking malt liquor.  Fast forward to today: The Turkey Mountain Urban Wilderness area is one of the more desirable and diverse "parks" in the area.  I've personally seen an explosion in interest in hiking and mountain biking in the area.  People wouldn't tend to think of NE Oklahoma as a mountain biking mecca, but Turkey has gained serious creds nationwide and is prized as being very technical terrain.  It's created a lot more local interest as well as people coming up the pike quite frequently to ride here. 

Finally, everyone appreciates your interest and effort in promoting uses of the river.  Simply because RPA has not seen things your way in the past, remember you are but one person and they answer to several hundred thousand.  The issue is far bigger than you and your personal craft, but I'd hate to see you NOT give your input now that they seem to be more keen than ever to hear it and to have your help.  Give it some thought before you crap on the idea entirely.  From our discussions in the past I can understand why you'd harbor some bitterness.  But shrug off the curmudgeonly shell and get on board 

[carltonplace]

Agreed, this is something you should be involved in Aqua.

[Vision 2025]

No offense, and good luck. I might have to pass on promoting this one.

I was not asking you to promote anything, as I've stated before your river experience is of value.  I offered to provide you with the information necessary to develop an informed opinion and in turn hopefully I'll gain from your knowledge as nothing as the details are not yet set in stone.  The offer is still there, let me know some evenings you are available (this week or early next or even Saturday) to come downtown as we'll need the resources I have here and it takes a good hour and a half so I'm thinking Pizza.  

Kirby

[AquaMan]

I was not asking you to promote anything, as I've stated before your river experience is of value.  I offered to provide you with the information necessary to develop an informed opinion and in turn hopefully I'll gain from your knowledge as nothing as the details are not yet set in stone.  The offer is still there, let me know some evenings you are available (this week or early next or even Saturday) to come downtown as we'll need the resources I have here and it takes a good hour and a half so I'm thinking Pizza.  

Kirby

I'll take you up on that. If I can help with a positive outlook and helpful insights I will. It has great potential and if handled well will be a springboard for more river use ventures. RPA can be a nurturing environment if they want to be. Pick a time or pm me, I suddenly have lots of time available.

[Breadburner]

Guys...If your going to have Pizza do your-selfs a favor and go to Minute Man in Prattville......

[AquaMan]

What's a Prattville? You mean South Sand Springs?

I've always heard they have good pizza.