America falls even further behind in the development of 21st century technology.

[Teatownclown]

Aquamarine Power Unveils Oyster 800 Wave Energy Generator – Exclusive Photos!

http://inhabitat.com/aquamarine-power-unveils-oyster-800-wave-energy-generator-exclusive-photos/

[heironymouspasparagus]

Another lost economic opportunity.

So many...just think of all the good, high paying, quality jobs that have been lost due to our dependence on, and catering to, big oil.

[Conan71]

Unfortunately, not all innovation comes from within our borders fellas.  It still creates another opportunity for American companies to sell, engineer installations, install, and service such units.  There's plenty of alt energy work going on in the U.S.  This just doesn't appear to be one of them. 

[Breadburner]

Why was Obama not on top of this....

[heironymouspasparagus]

All innovation has never come solely from us.  But we have not only abdicated, but literally run away from the leadership position. 

Some alt energy work has been done all along.  Just enough for a little propaganda, but never enough to take solar cells from over $100 per watt to under $2 per watt in the last 20 years or so.  Like the rest of the world has done.  With an invention - the solar cell - that WAS invented here.  Then actively squashed by "you know what".

Over and over this has happened.  Yeah, we do support and installation.  While the big profits for the economic infrastructure go to Europe and the Pacific rim.  Very clever of us, huh?  (Everyone here know about the company on the northeast side of town that makes the big wind power towers?  Lots of them.  Up by Tiger Switch.)

A few examples;
Solar
Wind
Fusion
Wave generation
Stem cell treatment

But we got a strong oil industry!  Oh, wait...that is mostly overseas, too, isn't it?

Cars then?  Well, ok.  If two of the three going bankrupt means a "strong industry", then I cede the point.

[Conan71]

All innovation has never come solely from us.  But we have not only abdicated, but literally run away from the leadership position. 

Some alt energy work has been done all along.  Just enough for a little propaganda, but never enough to take solar cells from over $100 per watt to under $2 per watt in the last 20 years or so.  Like the rest of the world has done.  With an invention - the solar cell - that WAS invented here.  Then actively squashed by "you know what".

Over and over this has happened.  Yeah, we do support and installation.  While the big profits for the economic infrastructure go to Europe and the Pacific rim.  Very clever of us, huh?  (Everyone here know about the company on the northeast side of town that makes the big wind power towers?  Lots of them.  Up by Tiger Switch.)

A few examples;
Solar
Wind
Fusion
Wave generation
Stem cell treatment

But we got a strong oil industry!  Oh, wait...that is mostly overseas, too, isn't it?

Cars then?  Well, ok.  If two of the three going bankrupt means a "strong industry", then I cede the point.

Not sure what your point is, but you keep re-hashing some inaccurate data.

I guess you haven't heard about the 86,000 wells still producing in Oklahoma, eh?  What about the explosion in oil exploration and production in the northern plains?  Like it or not, oil keeps Oklahoma's economic engine purring along.  As far as wind power, why were we sending stimulus money to China to build windmill components there? 

There's no new tricks in alt energy.  In fact, much of this is refined/revised technologies which date back from between the turn of the last century and WWII.  There's a demand for alternative energy sources, only problem is everyone wants to get it as cheap as possible.  Start paying American workers in bags of rice and we might have more jobs than we can handle.

[TheArtist]

  I would move things even closer to home to the city/metro level to say we are falling further behind. San Antonio is getting ready to put in a 400 megawat solar power plant. Thats enough to power 80,000 homes, on top of its efforts to save 250 megawats from new home energy management systems. http://www.mysanantonio.com/living_green_sa/article/CPS-Energy-ratchets-up-investment-in-solar-1455605.php

Solana Az is putting in a large solar farm, Austin is putting in one, etc. etc. And I am sure with San Antonios and other cities recent announcements the size of other solar farms will only increase. And thats only one type of for instance (wind, geothermal, as some others,,, and if your looking at the prices and capacities of the kind of solar of a year or two ago, your waaay behind the curve again). from the article... He described the decision in economic terms. "I have a fiduciary duty to do the best thing for San Antonio," he said, adding that he was "floored" by the low prices he's seeing from the proposals. Prices for solar photovoltaic components continue to drop, leading to falling prices for the power itself.  CPS reportedly will pay 15 cents per kilowatt hour for the power it's contracted to buy from the three 10-megawatt solar projects to be built and owned by SunEdison..... Sources say the most recent proposals are as much as 30 percent less than that.

But hey we in Tulsa are in the forefront and thinking big by changing out the light bulbs in City Hall!  Those other cities are competing to bring in new alternative energy industries,   from the article.... " Mayor Julián Castro announced that several clean energy technology companies would relocate their headquarters to San Antonio."   how can they even think they can compete against Tulsa and what we are doing here (end sarcasm)? 

I don't get why local oil and gas companies advertise against alternative energy, or why those in the local oil industries are against alternative energy or against reducing our need for it? Oil and gas prices would still go up even if every Tulsan powered their homes and cars via alternative, clean energy sources (all I am suggesting is that we work to steadily decrease our need for oil).   We could create a dream situation where we have our cake and eat it too.  We can get rich selling high priced oil to the rest of the world, while at the same time not having to buy so much of it ourselves.  we could be building up our energy industry on several fronts, both traditional and up and coming. They should not be seen as mutually exclusive at all.  Regardless of what we do, the world is gonna still want our oil and will only, over time, pay more and more for it.  How clever would it be if we werent having to pay for it but were reaping all the benefits of selling it, while also buiding up new energy industries?   

[Conan71]

Oklahoma isn't that far behind the curve.  The number of wind farms out in the western part of the state is impressive.  Another element being completely ignored here is Oklahoma has been taking advantage of hydro-electric power for decades as well.

Considering Oklahoma has quite a bit of natural gas reserves it makes sense to use convenient resources as a part of the mix as well.  The only recent power plant issue I recall local energy companies lobbying against was a clean coal plant out near Ponca City.  Chesapeake lobbied hard against it and for good reason.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Not sure what your point is, but you keep re-hashing some inaccurate data.

I guess you haven't heard about the 86,000 wells still producing in Oklahoma, eh?  What about the explosion in oil exploration and production in the northern plains?  Like it or not, oil keeps Oklahoma's economic engine purring along.  As far as wind power, why were we sending stimulus money to China to build windmill components there? 

There's no new tricks in alt energy.  In fact, much of this is refined/revised technologies which date back from between the turn of the last century and WWII.  There's a demand for alternative energy sources, only problem is everyone wants to get it as cheap as possible.  Start paying American workers in bags of rice and we might have more jobs than we can handle.

Wow.  First maybe you should have actually read some of the posts I have made in the past about alternate energy.

Oil is exactly why we have fallen so far behind in those alt forms.  As I have mentioned many times.  We have ignored and neglected all the items in that list, mostly due to oil industry dependency.  Got it?

Granted, windmills have been around for hundreds of years.  Large ones like the ones that make wind viable and cost effective are a relatively new phenomenon.  And were developed in Europe.  That is the point.  We threw away the lead on that technology.

And solar - well, the semiconductor was not even invented until 1947, so that wasn't that long ago.  That was the 100 down to 2 dollar comment.

[Cats Cats Cats]

If anybody cares that Oyster 800 is 800 kW.  The wind turbines they are putting up now are 2.4 MW so it takes 3 to equal one wind generator.  I wonder what the actual output comes out to on average since the ocean is always moving vs wind which might to blow.  I bet you that 800 kW is probably only at the highest tide periods as well.

[Conan71]

Wow.  First maybe you should have actually read some of the posts I have made in the past about alternate energy.

Oil is exactly why we have fallen so far behind in those alt forms.  As I have mentioned many times.  We have ignored and neglected all the items in that list, mostly due to oil industry dependency.  Got it?

Granted, windmills have been around for hundreds of years.  Large ones like the ones that make wind viable and cost effective are a relatively new phenomenon.  And were developed in Europe.  That is the point.  We threw away the lead on that technology.

And solar - well, the semiconductor was not even invented until 1947, so that wasn't that long ago.  That was the 100 down to 2 dollar comment.

Were you aware bio-fuels have been around since before the turn of the last century?  Hydro-electric and wind have been around about that long as well.

FWIW, the windmill's origin is actually from the middle-east and the first commercial electricity-generating wind turbine was built in Ohio.  Aside from that, why does it make any difference where wind generation was invented if we are producing windmills now?  There's plenty of jobs to be had in constantly revising and improving technology someone else invented.  That's not really "missing the boat" now is it?

Point is, there's plenty of alt-energy projects going on along with oil and gas production within the borders of the U.S.  As well, large petroleum companies are involved and invested in alt energy development.  Problem is, bio fuels cannot compete with fossil fuels until oil prices get to a point that bio fuels can survive on their own without massive subsidies.  They simply are not as economically viable and are difficult to produce without burning a lot of energy to make them.  And therein is the bigger problem is that bio-fuel support from the government thus far has been little more than a modernization of farm subsidies.

As far as photo cells being produced off-shore, again, unless we are willing to pay a whole lot more for our electric power simply to feel good about getting our energy from the sun so that we can exclusively purchase panels made in America, it's not going to make much of an in-roads so long as wind, hydro, gas, and coal can generate our electricity a whole lot cheaper.

There's a yin & yang effect to any form of energy.  If you push all effort over to building wind mills & solar panels, and fueling vehicles with bio fuels you cost people in the oil and gas business jobs.  I'd say right now we've got a decent balance in each industry as we gradually shift to more renewable forms of energy.  No one is in denial that someday we will need to be completely independent of fossil fuels, it's simply not to the point it's become critical due to reserves being depleted, nor financially feasible enough due to fossil fuel costs being too high.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Were you aware bio-fuels have been around since before the turn of the last century?  Hydro-electric and wind have been around about that long as well.

...

There's a yin & yang effect to any form of energy.  If you push all effort over to building wind mills & solar panels, and fueling vehicles with bio fuels you cost people in the oil and gas business jobs.  I'd say right now we've got a decent balance in each industry as we gradually shift to more renewable forms of energy.  No one is in denial that someday we will need to be completely independent of fossil fuels, it's simply not to the point it's become critical due to reserves being depleted, nor financially feasible enough due to fossil fuel costs being too high.

I have posted about biofuels here.  And mentioned that in 1910, England was able to get about 40 to 50 gallons per ton of mass.  I submitted at the time that I would expect developments since then would likely increase that yield.

And that the mass per acre of the item used most NOW (Corn) is not just woefully inadequate to even attempt, but should be criminally negligent by its use due to the FACT that is takes more energy to plant, harvest, and process the ethanol that way than is returned by its intended use.

And that the way to achieve massive improvements in that efficiency is to change to marijuana or even switchgrass for the biomass.


A couple of key phrases to watch for from the oil industry when obstructionism is imminent, and you used two of them;
decent balance in each industry...
gradually shift to more renewable forms of energy...

There are some very high cost areas for energy in this country that would already make solar and wind extremely cost effective (granted OK isn't one of them, and that suits me fine).  But Germany and many areas of the Pacific rim have been in that "gradual shift" mode for a couple of decades and have achieved huge gains.  At cost effective levels.

California would be a prime example - they are doing wind.  But even though it is in process, it was way late to stall the efforts to artificially manipulated and destabilize their energy situation by a few well known players in the energy options game.  I'm sure everyone remembers Enron.  And their buddies Devon Energy, and Williams Co, et. al, who were also players in that game to a lesser degree.

The alternate energy side IS NOT about hurting jobs in the oil industry.  It is about diversifying our sources of energy to become less dependent on one item.  The big propaganda talk now goes to how much natural gas there is in OK.  100 years worth or more at present usage rates.  But what about the future - 'present usage' implies absolute stagnation.  No growth for the next 100 years.  But what if we actually grow and develop?  At what rate?

Alternates mean there are other solutions to take up the slack.  Use them all.  Solar, wind, fusion, wave action.  And as we see all the time, volume activity leads to discounts.  Solar is heavily discounted from just a couple dozen years ago, and has moved to the forefront as viable, cost-effective energy supply in many applications.  And that (all of them!) should be growing much faster.

(Solar is extremely competitive when California's 50 cents per kilowatt/hour rates are in effect!  In fact, it is a lot cheaper.)

[sauerkraut]

Why was Obama not on top of this....

Obama wants to go back 200 years to windmill power, he thinks that's the answer, and he wants to go back to the 1970's to Solar power, if those developemnts did not work in the past what makes Obama think they will work in the future? Jimmy Carter had put solar panels on the white house I'm surprised Obama did not re-install 'em. The baddies are oil, coal and natural gas. A wave machine is one of those things that no one wants in front of their beach home, so that's out.

[Hoss]

Obama wants to go back 200 years to windmill power, he thinks that's the answer, and he wants to go back to the 1970's to Solar power, if those developemnts did not work in the past what makes Obama think they will work in the future? Jimmy Carter had put solar panels on the white house I'm surprised Obama did not re-install 'em. The baddies are oil, coal and natural gas. A wave machine is one of those things that no one wants in front of their beach home, so that's out.

I think the heat is affecting your brain..oh wait, it's not as hot in Nebraska.

[RecycleMichael]

Obama wants to go back 200 years to windmill power, he thinks that's the answer, and he wants to go back to the 1970's to Solar power, if those developemnts did not work in the past what makes Obama think they will work in the future?

I don't mean to treat you like a simpleton, but you make it hard to have a conversation with your elementary arguments.

The reason why the alternative energy technologies have failed is multifold. Tax breaks for oil, coal, and gas are often cited. But the main difference today is that there have been real breakthroughs in storage technology. It doesn't have to be sunny or windy  every day if you can store the energy efficiently.