Income base numbers suggest Tulsa 'could' support NHL..

[les_stockton]

Several years ago, I remember looking into it and it seemed that there are two "donor" cities in Oklahoma that basically pay the taxes to support the rest of the state.  That's Tulsa and Oklahoma City.  However, it seemed that OKC was able to keep a higher percentage of their tax dollars than Tulsa was able to.  I chalk this up to OKC being the state capital and so there seem to be a lot of infrastructure improvements that are felt needed in the capital, and Tulsa has to raise more of it's own dollars in order to support.
Do I believe that Tulsa's streets are in bad shape because of this?  No.  Tulsa's streets are in bad shape because of politicians that spent money on sexier projects to get re-elected over the years; combined with a citizenry unwilling to pay a little more to keep the streets up.  Now the streets are in such bad shape, that the cost is too high for the citizens to afford to fix.
The streets will get worse, because we can only afford to fix the most important streets (the ones around hospitals, and around shopping areas where tax revenues are generated).

[JDG78]

Well, I do live in OKC, but lived in Tulsa for 8 years and just recently moved back to OKC.  Still have many friends in T-Town and love the city greatly....

Regarding the loopholes... THAT IS PLAIN BULL****....

The thunder tax credit did not cost the state anything....We still received tax revenue that we would have not otherwise had.   The state does the same thing for the film industry and nobody seems to be complaining about that.
The state is the largest employer in OKC, however their are several companies worth note that now employ over 5K.   Devon,Chesapeeke, American Fidelity, and MFB...   
I know regarding streets and highways, that ODOT spends nearly identically in Tulsa and OKC.  Some years OKC has a few percent higher in dollars spend and the next Tulsa will be ahead.  Over the last 25 years the amount speant is nearly identical...
Regarding infrastructure improvements... All improvents that have been made in OKC over the last 20 years have been done so with self imposed city taxes or Federal funding.  Of course, this is omitting street and highway improvements, but as I mentioned above, the spending is nearly equal between OKC and Tulsa from ODOT.
I wasn't trying to start a war or anything.  I do love Tulsa, I am just amazed sometimes that whenever I am back in Tulsa or have some friends down from Tulsa, they are always surprised about OKC.   They always comment how they have such a negative perception of okc.  Then they come here and hang out and they like it.  They never hear about the boathouses, the devon tower, Sandridge Campus, the myriad gardens or any of the new development in okc...  Conversely, we always tend to get good updates on Tulsa in the OKC media.

[Teatownclown]

I've wanted to kill this thread off... having lived in hockey heaven, Boston, there's no way on Dawgs green earth that this will ever happen here.

There.

Is this conjecture just to pump new product for the Areama?

[RecycleMichael]

I know regarding streets and highways, that ODOT spends nearly identically in Tulsa and OKC.  Some years OKC has a few percent higher in dollars spend and the next Tulsa will be ahead.  Over the last 25 years the amount speant is nearly identical...

Untrue. Show us evidence.

Here is this year's difference...

OKC
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/maps/division4_okc_metro.pdf

Tulsa
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/maps/division8_tulsa_metro.pdf

More than double.

[swake]

Untrue. Show us evidence.

Here is this year's difference...

OKC
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/maps/division4_okc_metro.pdf

Tulsa
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/maps/division8_tulsa_metro.pdf

More than double.

Not to mention we have no freestanding 4 year public university compared to three in the Oklahoma City metro. There's all the money spent at OU Health Sciences vs what is spent here. Tulsa's public hospital (which is new) is owned by the city, not the state despite it's name. And that's aside from having nearly all possible state departments based in Oklahoma City (which is not what happens in other state capitals) and the state getting almost all federal facilities located in the Oklahoma City area. Tulsa is the largest city with no free interstate access and one of the largest with out Amtrak.

You also really need to look back into the Thunder tax too. The tax rebate plan that the Thunder received was originally intended to encourage businesses to locate in Oklahoma bringing in new money into the state.

The rebate was not allowed for entertainment businesses that lived off of local spending, it had to be amended to include the Thunder. But the Thunder are supported by local discretionary spending and are do not generate new money into the state economy therefore the spending that generates the revenue for that rebate already existed in the local economy.

[Hoss]

Well, I do live in OKC, but lived in Tulsa for 8 years and just recently moved back to OKC.  Still have many friends in T-Town and love the city greatly....

Regarding the loopholes... THAT IS PLAIN BULL****....

The thunder tax credit did not cost the state anything....We still received tax revenue that we would have not otherwise had.   The state does the same thing for the film industry and nobody seems to be complaining about that.
The state is the largest employer in OKC, however their are several companies worth note that now employ over 5K.   Devon,Chesapeeke, American Fidelity, and MFB...   
I know regarding streets and highways, that ODOT spends nearly identically in Tulsa and OKC.  Some years OKC has a few percent higher in dollars spend and the next Tulsa will be ahead.  Over the last 25 years the amount speant is nearly identical...
Regarding infrastructure improvements... All improvents that have been made in OKC over the last 20 years have been done so with self imposed city taxes or Federal funding.  Of course, this is omitting street and highway improvements, but as I mentioned above, the spending is nearly equal between OKC and Tulsa from ODOT.
I wasn't trying to start a war or anything.  I do love Tulsa, I am just amazed sometimes that whenever I am back in Tulsa or have some friends down from Tulsa, they are always surprised about OKC.   They always comment how they have such a negative perception of okc.  Then they come here and hang out and they like it.  They never hear about the boathouses, the devon tower, Sandridge Campus, the myriad gardens or any of the new development in okc...  Conversely, we always tend to get good updates on Tulsa in the OKC media.

Not disclosing that you lived there at the outset doesn't bode well for your credibility here in the future.

And, as Swake already pointed out, the tax breaks had to be amended in order for the Thunder to qualify.  Tell me that's not the squeaky wheel getting greased....

[JDG78]

The ODOT chart is misleading if you compare what was actually completed in OKC vs. Tulsa... If you look at dollar for dollar spending over the last 25 years it is nearly equal.   Even with your graph, the OKC spending vs. Tulsa spending is roughly 187million (OKC0 vs . 144m in Tulsa).   

The Thunder tax issue is wrong.   Each player home or away that plays in OKC is charged Oklahoma state income tax on each check... That is income we would not have otherwise had... We gave them a tax break to relocate.  They did not take money from the state coffers and write the Thunder a check to relocate.   No money was taken from the general fund....

Hoss -My intent of this post was not to start a war but just to discuss the issues I brought.   I have no hate for Tulsa and have posted without being a hater... I read your postings and it is clear you are a hater....

[les_stockton]

It seems to me  that labels are meant to marginalize a person, and discredit their viewpoint.

[Hoss]

... I read your postings and it is clear you are a hater....

Exactly right.  I spent enough of my early adulthood in that hole down the pike that I'll never like it.   I hated it even before it was cool to hate it.

[Hoss]

It seems to me  that labels are meant to marginalize a person, and discredit their viewpoint.

Les, I care not if he calls me a hater.  You know me well; I don't care what other people think of me.  If the city of OKC seeks validation, they shouldn't look toward me, or many up here, especially with the way their politics work.  Let's keep in mind this is a city that essentially stole the state capitol from another city.

[Hoss]

The Thunder tax issue is wrong.   Each player home or away that plays in OKC is charged Oklahoma state income tax on each check... That is income we would not have otherwise had... We gave them a tax break to relocate.  They did not take money from the state coffers and write the Thunder a check to relocate.   No money was taken from the general fund....

If the tax break didn't exist for the Thunder, however, they would be paying more in corporate taxes.  A tax break doesn't mean money was taken from the general fund, it means that revenue that COULD have been collected wasn't because of the break.  Clay Bennett got a sweetheart deal and to somehow infer that he didn't is a fantasy.

Also, how much of that income do you think is spent in Oklahoma, as opposed to say, giving a tax break to a brick and mortar company who decides to employ 5000 or more people in the state?  NBA players travel; many have homes that aren't here, many NBA players mock Oklahoma and ask 'who would want to live there?'.  I'm betting a lot of that income isn't spent in the state of Oklahoma.

[okcpulse]

If the tax break didn't exist for the Thunder, however, they would be paying more in corporate taxes.  A tax break doesn't mean money was taken from the general fund, it means that revenue that COULD have been collected wasn't because of the break.  Clay Bennett got a sweetheart deal and to somehow infer that he didn't is a fantasy.

Also, how much of that income do you think is spent in Oklahoma, as opposed to say, giving a tax break to a brick and mortar company who decides to employ 5000 or more people in the state?  NBA players travel; many have homes that aren't here, many NBA players mock Oklahoma and ask 'who would want to live there?'.  I'm betting a lot of that income isn't spent in the state of Oklahoma.

Yyyeah, keep running in circles with your grudge, Hoss.  And to claim that a lot of the NBA player's income isn't spent in Oklahoma is blatantly wrong.  Especially since several NBA players have bought homes in OKC, not to mention people I know in OKC have either sold items to or have done custom jobs for the players that live in OKC during the NBA season.  Several live in OKC during the off season, with the exception of this year's NBA lockout.

Oklahoma held an election on where to establish the state capitol.  OKC won the vote.  Guthrie refused to give up the seal, so it had to be retrieved.  Are you saying Guthrie should have been the state capitol?  And who was the largest city in the state before the capitol moved in 1910?  It wasn't Guthrie, and it certainly wasn't Tulsa.  You can hate OKC all you want, but eventually you and many other Tulsans will need to come to the realization that both cities have good and bad qualities.

[Hoss]

Yyyeah, keep running in circles with your grudge, Hoss.  And to claim that a lot of the NBA player's income isn't spent in Oklahoma is blatantly wrong.  Especially since several NBA players have bought homes in OKC, not to mention people I know in OKC have either sold items to or have done custom jobs for the players that live in OKC during the NBA season.  Several live in OKC during the off season, with the exception of this year's NBA lockout.

Oklahoma held an election on where to establish the state capitol.  OKC won the vote.  Guthrie refused to give up the seal, so it had to be retrieved.  Are you saying Guthrie should have been the state capitol?  And who was the largest city in the state before the capitol moved in 1910?  It wasn't Guthrie, and it certainly wasn't Tulsa.  You can hate OKC all you want, but eventually you and many other Tulsans will need to come to the realization that both cities have good and bad qualities.

Figured you'd chime in at some point.  Look, my hatred for OKC is well documented and is my own.  No one will ever take that from me.  It's on par with the hatred that San Francisco and Oakland have with one another and for me it's founded in my experiences in your not-so-fine city.

And since when does a city have to be the largest to be capital?  I can think of MANY instances where it isn't (Topeka comes to mind, Carson City in Nevada, etc, etc).

Fact of the matter remains, the tax statute got modified to cater to Clay and the Thunder.  That's something that is pure fact.

But continue to defend it.  I'll go on airing my opinion of it (and I know I'm not alone), just as many of you down the pike will say you want equality with the two largest cities in the state.  I know many could care less.

[les_stockton]

I'll add the issue  of the Heartland Flyer.  Tulsa was told that if  we voted to help pay for it, we would get train service.  Well,  after service was brought in to OKC, they said, "oh, that's good enough" and stopped there.  We helped pay to get the service, but it was a scam to bring it in for OKC all along and Tulsans were duped into agreeing with it.

[Laramie]

Untrue. Show us evidence.

Here is this year's difference...

OKC
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/maps/division4_okc_metro.pdf

Tulsa
http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/cwp-8-year-plan/maps/division8_tulsa_metro.pdf

More than double.

Many of the street improvements made in Oklahoma City were the result of several  "bond issues" in which property owners voted in from a period of 1995 through 2008.

You are allowed additional state funding when a community is spending its own money for street and infrastructure projects.

Project 180 in downtown Oklahoma City in which the streets & infrastructure is being completely redone is a result of the tax increments from the new 50-story Devon Energy Tower:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A2KJke03mnJOPGcAu0eJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DDevon%2BTower%2Bconstruction%2Bin%2BOklahoma%2BCity%26n%3D30%26ei%3Dutf-8%26y%3DSearch%26b%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic&w=640&h=360&imgurl=kwtv.images.worldnow.com%2Fimages%2F14701712_BG1.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.news9.com%2Fstory%2F14701712%2Ftouring-devon-tower-oklahomas-tallest-building&size=40.1+KB&name=Devon+Tower%3A+Oklahoma%26%2339%3Bs+Tallest+Building+-+News9.com+-+Oklahoma+City+...&p=Devon+Tower+construction+in+Oklahoma+City&oid=38476f03f8667f424100c3a22ed9ecce&fr2=&fr=&tt=Devon+Tower%3A+Oklahoma%26%2339%3Bs+Tallest+Building+-+News9.com+-+Oklahoma+City+...&b=0&ni=28&no=12&tab=organic&sigr=12imesod1&sigb=13vk6nd1t&sigi=11gmlinhj&.crumb=h6YZzkCcfcA


Oklahoma City's project 180:  http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AqPfWOAkdU8.dEnpjsMgwNybvZx4?p=Oklahoma+City+Project+180&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-420