Obama's Foreign Policy

[Conan71]

Swake, actually, I don't pick up from Gaspar that he thinks all Muslims are like the extremists.

I believe you and I are talking past each other on what a "Muslim nation" is.  You are defining it as percentages of population, I'm defining it by government charters.  Each of the countries you listed is much more of a secular government, much like the United States.

When I think of a Muslim nation, I think of one like Iran which is ruled by a system of mullahs and ayatollahs, or an Islamic monarchy like Saudi Arabia, not a secular republic like Turkey, which yes, is inhabited mostly by Muslims.  Most of whom are pretty progressive in their religious thinking.

[Townsend]

I don't pick up from Gaspar that he thinks all Muslims are like the extremists.

Our reading comprehension differs.  The PM's I receive tell me I'm not alone.

As before he'll post something blatantly blanketed and then backpedal as soon as he realizes how small minded he sounds.

That's why I try to clarify his points.  He makes the threads sound bigoted.

[Gaspar]

I'm just getting a kick out of the attempts to re-define what I said.  

[Townsend]

Shhh, people without emoticons are talking.

[Hoss]

Shhh, people without emoticons are talking.

Nice...

[swake]

Swake, actually, I don't pick up from Gaspar that he thinks all Muslims are like the extremists.

I believe you and I are talking past each other on what a "Muslim nation" is.  You are defining it as percentages of population, I'm defining it by government charters.  Each of the countries you listed is much more of a secular government, much like the United States.

When I think of a Muslim nation, I think of one like Iran which is ruled by a system of mullahs and ayatollahs, or an Islamic monarchy like Saudi Arabia, not a secular republic like Turkey, which yes, is inhabited mostly by Muslims.  Most of whom are pretty progressive in their religious thinking.

The three largest are clearly Islamic nations.

From the constitution of the country with the largest Muslim population, Indonesia:
1.   the national independence of Indonesia shall be formulated into a constitution of the sovereign Republic of Indonesia which is based on the belief in the One and Only God...
2.   National independence of Indonesia shall be formulated into a constitution of the sovereign Republic of Indonesia which is based on the belief in the One and Only God, just and humanity, the unity of Indonesia, democracy guided by the inner wisdom of deliberations amongst representatives and the realization of social justice for all of the people of Indonesia

Second Largest, Pakistan (also known as The Islamic Republic of Pakistan)
1.   Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust
2.   Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed
3.   Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah
4.   ...the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government

Third Largest, Bangladesh
1.   The principles of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah, nationalism, democracy and socialism meaning economic and social justice, together with the principles derived from them as set out in this Part, shall constitute the fundamental principles of state policy
2.   Absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah shall be the basis of all actions

The fourth largest is India which is predominatly Hindu so this doesn't apply. Turkey, the fifth largest, has a firmly secular government. But the three largest are all clearly Islamic countries.

They also have statements like this in their constitutions:

Every individual is free to follow a religion and to practice according to his religion, to choose the education and teaching, job, citizenship, to stay in or to leave the country, and shall not be denied re-entry – Indonesia

The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic
Subject to law, public order and morality-
(a) every citizen has the right to profess, practice or propagate any religion;  
(b) every religious community or denomination has the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruction, or to take part in or to attend any religious ceremony or worship, if that instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own – Bangledesh

Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures – Pakistan

These three are clearly Islamic nations that have all elected women as Prime Minister and that at least tolerate other religions and that do not codify the subjugation of women, even if it does happen in practice in poor tribal areas. Practices that harm and relegate women to second class status in those areas and in the gulf are more tribal than they are religious.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/questions/women/

Don't forget that most Muslims live in these five countries. Together they have almost 800 million Muslim citizens which badly dwarfs the population of the gulf states, which are the basis for Americans stereotypical image of "Muslims".

[Townsend]

the basis for Americans stereotypical image of "Muslims".

Television, movies, and "bleeds it leads" journalism.

You'd think, as Oklahomans, we'd understand how stereotyping is harmful.

[Conan71]

The three largest are clearly Islamic nations.

From the constitution of the country with the largest Muslim population, Indonesia:
1.   the national independence of Indonesia shall be formulated into a constitution of the sovereign Republic of Indonesia which is based on the belief in the One and Only God...
2.   National independence of Indonesia shall be formulated into a constitution of the sovereign Republic of Indonesia which is based on the belief in the One and Only God, just and humanity, the unity of Indonesia, democracy guided by the inner wisdom of deliberations amongst representatives and the realization of social justice for all of the people of Indonesia

Second Largest, Pakistan (also known as The Islamic Republic of Pakistan)
1.   Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust
2.   Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed
3.   Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah
4.   ...the Injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah shall be the supreme law and source of guidance for legislation to be administered through laws enacted by the Parliament and Provincial Assemblies, and for policy making by the Government

Third Largest, Bangladesh
1.   The principles of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah, nationalism, democracy and socialism meaning economic and social justice, together with the principles derived from them as set out in this Part, shall constitute the fundamental principles of state policy
2.   Absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah shall be the basis of all actions

The fourth largest is India which is predominatly Hindu so this doesn't apply. Turkey, the fifth largest, has a firmly secular government. But the three largest are all clearly Islamic countries.

They also have statements like this in their constitutions:

Every individual is free to follow a religion and to practice according to his religion, to choose the education and teaching, job, citizenship, to stay in or to leave the country, and shall not be denied re-entry – Indonesia

The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic
Subject to law, public order and morality-
(a) every citizen has the right to profess, practice or propagate any religion;  
(b) every religious community or denomination has the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruction, or to take part in or to attend any religious ceremony or worship, if that instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own – Bangledesh

Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures – Pakistan

These three are clearly Islamic nations that have all elected women as Prime Minister and that at least tolerate other religions and that do not codify the subjugation of women, even if it does happen in practice in poor tribal areas. Practices that harm and relegate women to second class status in those areas and in the gulf are more tribal than they are religious.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/questions/women/

Don't forget that most Muslims live in these five countries. Together they have almost 800 million Muslim citizens which badly dwarfs the population of the gulf states, which are the basis for Americans stereotypical image of "Muslims".

Good research.

Indonesia, you'll note does not specifically mention Islam in the passage you cited, but point taken.  I think we can agree those are obviously much more progressive than, say, Iran or Saudi Arabia which would be, considered, what? Fundamentalist.  That's what I've always considered a "Muslim" country as I considered the others you mentioned as being secular for the simple reason that their form of government looks a whole lot more like other secular governments around the globe rather than theocracies.

[Red Arrow]

Shhh, people without emoticons are talking.

[Conan71]

You hear that?  It's a mime screaming.

[we vs us]

Fareed Zakharia has an interesting article out, in which he delineates the Admin's criteria for intervention in Libya.  To wit:  

" . . . But the Libya intervention is so significant precisely because it did not follow the traditional pattern of U.S.-led interventions. Indeed, it launched a new era in U.S. foreign policy.

The United States decided that it was only going to intervene in Libya if it could establish several conditions:

1)    A local group that was willing to fight and die for change; in other words, "indigenous capacity".

2)    Locally recognized legitimacy in the form of the Arab League's request for intervention.

3)    International legitimacy in the form of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973.

4)    Genuine burden sharing with the British and French spelling out precisely how many sorties they would be willing to man and precisely what level of commitment they would be willing to provide.

It was only when all those conditions were fulfilled that the Obama Administration agreed to play a pivotal but supporting role in the Libya operation."

He makes a great point as well regarding cost:

"The new model does two things:

First, it ensures that there's genuinely a local alliance committed to the same goals as the external coalition.  This way, there is more legitimacy on the ground. And if there is anything Afghanistan and Iraq have taught us, it is that local legitimacy is key.

Second, this model ensures that there is genuine burden sharing so that the United States is not left owning the country as has happened so often in the past.

Compared to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Libya operation was a bargain.  It cost the U.S. about $1 billion.  The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan collectively cost the U.S. $1.3 trillion. In other words, success in Libya could be achieved at less than one-tenth of one percent of the cost of the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan.  That's not a bad model for the future."

And he's right.  Iraq and Afghanistan were always going to be transformational conflicts, and among other things they've managed to strip down our criteria for intervention to dollar amount and other leveraged elements (external and internal allies, and global legitimacy).  

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/23/a-new-era-in-u-s-foreign-policy/?hpt=hp_c1

[Conan71]

Fareed Zakharia has an interesting article out, in which he delineates the Admin's criteria for intervention in Libya.  To wit:  

He makes a great point as well regarding cost:

And he's right.  Iraq and Afghanistan were always going to be transformational conflicts, and among other things they've managed to strip down our criteria for intervention to dollar amount and other leveraged elements (external and internal allies, and global legitimacy).  

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/23/a-new-era-in-u-s-foreign-policy/?hpt=hp_c1

I can't argue with the logic of playing a supporting role rather than being top cop on an operation like that and I think it would behoove any future Presidents to adopt such a strategy.  

Now, what's the payback for the U.S.'s $1 billion investment in a Libyan regime change?  

[Hoss]

Fareed Zakharia has an interesting article out, in which he delineates the Admin's criteria for intervention in Libya.  To wit:  

He makes a great point as well regarding cost:

And he's right.  Iraq and Afghanistan were always going to be transformational conflicts, and among other things they've managed to strip down our criteria for intervention to dollar amount and other leveraged elements (external and internal allies, and global legitimacy).  

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/23/a-new-era-in-u-s-foreign-policy/?hpt=hp_c1

I like Fareed, even before he disclosed himself as being an Obama supporter.  Very intelligent and a lot of insight on the Middle East.  More so than most, even some who are former residents of the area.

[Townsend]

Now, what's the payback for the U.S.'s $1 billion investment in a Libyan regime change?  

What's been the payback on most of our military actions in the last 10 years?..well...the ones we know about...duh duh duhhhhhh

[Conan71]

What's been the payback on most of our military actions in the last 10 years?..well...the ones we know about...duh duh duhhhhhh

Come on now.  You knew I couldn't hand out a compliment to Obama without a requisite back-hand bitchslap.