Another stab at liquor law reform

[DanoDan]

I will defend SoonerPoll and pollster Bill Shapard. I have been involved in a handful of projects where they were hired to do the polling, focus groups, etc.

They are by far the best in the state in the polling business. They are one of the few companies that does cell-phone number polling and they have the staff to do very complete work very timely. They predicted the Dewey election and the Fallin election scarily good.

I think the results are representative of the state's population and mentality. That makes me sad.

How much do they charge to do a poll?  About $10,000??

[DanoDan]

The last question was this (of the three posed):

Why would they include that last part?  To me, that invalidates the entire set of three questions.

Yeah, I think plenty of up tight conservatives would want such oddly named alcohol products to be sold in Oklahoma in grocery stores. 

[carltonplace]

The line of questioning panders to the worst fears.  Aside from the malt liquor and mad dog references in the third question, they also make mention of being able to sell high point alcohol products and wine in establishments where people under 21 can enter.  Again, pandering to fear that 16 year olds can simply walk into Reasor's and walk out with a 40 of OE.  Nevermind that I get asked for an ID to buy 3.2 beer in the grocery store while the liquor stores I frequent NEVER ask for an I.D.

IOW- due to company policies, you are far more likely to get carded at QT or Wal-Mart Market than at an independent liquor store.  It just amazes me that two or three liquor wholesalers and some lobbyists for liquor stores manage to prevent a million-plus who drink from being able to make the same decisions others do around the country.

Or that restaurants that sell alchohol do not bar entry of persons under the age of 21.

[dbacks fan]

Most of the grocery stores that sell wine and beer, and those that sell spirits as well, that I have been to don't even sell MD20/20, Olde English, or any of the other "malt liquors" even the Walgreens and CVS stores don't carry them in the ones with a liquor department.

[TheTed]

QT sells various malt liquors including OE, I think. But it's all the 3.2 versions. My mind is boggled every time I see someone walking out with a 3.2 malt liquor.

What's better than a beer that's not only low in alcohol, but has a vomit-inducing taste?

[Hoss]

QT sells various malt liquors including OE, I think. But it's all the 3.2 versions. My mind is boggled every time I see someone walking out with a 3.2 malt liquor.

What's better than a beer that's not only low in alcohol, but has a vomit-inducing taste?

And exception to the rule is Mickey's Bigmouth..oh wait, I have to buy that in the liquor store, so it's definitely above 3.2 ABV.

[Michael71]

If all that changes is the ability to sell beer and wine, then the liquor stores will only loose a small bit of their sales, but in no way be enough to cripple them or put them out of business.  If written correctly, then it might even be a small boost to them if they can sell cold, six point beer, if they are willing to put in coolers.  The only way that the individual liquor stores will really be effected is if the law is changed to allow the full sale of liquor in grocery stores.  If this was to happen, then what would remain of the liquor stores will be the cream of the crop, those that can cater to their customers.  I don't have a problem with this, or do you like the idea of a crappy liquor store on every corner, having to guess which ones actually know what they sale and can make a decent suggestion on things?

Wine is actually where liquor stores make their profit.  There's not much markup on a Crown Royal bottle...primarily because you have to compete with the bigger stores.  The bigger stores will make almost nothing on popular staple items.  But, that $6-$8 bottle of wine that you've never heard of only cost them $3.  Smaller stores have to put much more thought into their selections.  And, because most wines are there because of customer requests/suggestions, their markup is pretty consistent.

The price of a bottle of liquor would increase significantly if it were a liquor stores biggest commodity.

[Red Arrow]

Wine is actually where liquor stores make their profit.  There's not much markup on a Crown Royal bottle...primarily because you have to compete with the bigger stores.  The bigger stores will make almost nothing on popular staple items.  But, that $6-$8 bottle of wine that you've never heard of only cost them $3.  Smaller stores have to put much more thought into their selections.  And, because most wines are there because of customer requests/suggestions, their markup is pretty consistent.

The price of a bottle of liquor would increase significantly if it were a liquor stores biggest commodity.

How's the markup on craft beer?  It seems like some of the prices have gotten a bit exorbitant. I believe at one time I saw one importer's stated goal was to get the price of beer on par with wine.  That's too much.

[Michael71]

How's the markup on craft beer?  It seems like some of the prices have gotten a bit exorbitant. I believe at one time I saw one importer's stated goal was to get the price of beer on par with wine.  That's too much.

Beer is NOT a money maker for most liquor stores...at least small ones like ours.  We also just have a standard markup no matter what type of beer it is.  We carry it for our customers convenience.  As for craft beers, it just depends.  It's already expensive enough.

[DTowner]

Article in today's Tulsa World does not offer a lot of  hope that change will happen soon.  Most of the quoted task force members sound like they have little interest in changing the current system in which each interest group has set up a comfortable nest.

     

Changes to Oklahoma liquor laws compared to high flying act

TOM GILBERT / Tulsa World file By WAYNE GREENE World Senior Writer
Published: 9/19/2011  2:22 AM
Last Modified: 9/19/2011  8:23 AM


Oklahoma's liquor laws are like a bear riding a bicycle on a high wire while juggling flaming sticks - balance is everything.

A legislative task force studying the idea of allowing grocery stores to sell strong beer and wine will determine if the state can restring that wire without bringing the whole thing down in a flaming mess that leaves nothing but an angry bear and a broken bike.

"It's complex," said state Rep. Ron Peters, R-Tulsa, and co-chairman of the committee that has its first meeting Monday at the state Capitol.

The task force brings lawmakers and representatives of all the interested parties - liquor stores, grocery stores, convenience stores, wholesalers, wineries, distributors, breweries and several others - to the table.

And everyone's got a stake in the question.

Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Roy Williams is a member of the committee and an advocate for allowing strong beer and wine sales in grocery stores.

His arguments: It's more convenient for the consumers, brings competition to the market and will help recruit new retail and talented young people to the state.

Thirty-four other states allow wine and strong beer sales in grocery stores, and Oklahoma should, too, Williams said.

Breaking the liquor store monopoly on wine and strong beer would help speed the state's efforts to bring retailers like Costco into the state.

And modernizing the state's turn-of-the-century liquor laws would help change attitudes about Oklahoma, among potential employers and talented young workers.

But, he admits, changing the law is easier said than done.

For one thing, much of Oklahoma's liquor law is written into the state Constitution, so changing it requires a vote of the people. A requirement that constitutional questions only deal with a single subject further complicates the issue.

"The devil's in the details," he said.

Williams said he's convinced a compromise can be worked out that will make all parties happy, but some of the other members of the task force are dubious.

J.P. Richard, owner of Cache Road Liquor and Wine in Lawton, said the idea would take away about a quarter of retail liquor stores' business. The result: many locally owned businesses will go out of business in favor of big out-of-state chain stores.

"I would lose half my wine sales, and I would survive, but I'd have to lay people off," Richard said.

For consumers, it will mean less choice. Big stores will carry only a limited number of brands and distributors will be less willing to bring low-volume products into the state.

Under the current system, liquor stores can only sell wine, liquor and beer. One of the best ways of getting a competitive advantage is to push their distributors to bring in more variety in products: interesting new wine and beer labels that might not have huge sales, but might intrigue some customers.

"Basically, what you get in a grocery store - good ones, bad ones, whatever - is brands that are nationally distributed. What you don't get is what you can find in any good wine shop in the state of Oklahoma."

Oklahoma liquor stores currently have more than 17,000 products available through distributors. In Texas, where grocery stores sell strong beer and wine, there are fewer than 12,000 product lines available, Richard said.

He also predicted the result would be higher prices as distributors try to make up for the higher costs of delivering to more stores and liquor stores look to make up for lost business.

He scoffed at the idea of allowing liquor stores to sell others products - as happens in some other states - as a compensation for their lost wine and beer sales.

Changing the delicate balance of Oklahoma's liquor laws is "dismantling an industry that's not broken," he said.

Richard isn't the only skeptic on the task force.

Task force member Zach Prichard, president of McAlester-based Choc Beer, said broadening the sales of strong beer would definitely put many liquor stores out of business, which would translate into fewer retail outlets for niche-label beers like his own.

"I think a lot of people assume 'Hey, I'm going to get all the beers I can buy at the retail liquor store in Walmart or Whole Foods.' ... and that's not going to be the case," Prichard said "There definitely would be less availability of beer to the consumer."

Task Force member Jim Griffith, CEO of OnCue Express, a Stillwater-based convenience store chain, said convenience stores also are resisting the idea.

Convenience stores fear that the ability to sell strong beer and wine could come with the sorts of restrictions currently on liquor stores - limited hours and days of operations, limited number of stores owned by one person and limited access to minors.

"Every time you start thinking about something, there's questions that come up and nobody has been able to answer any of those questions so far," Griffith said.

He also doesn't like proposals to allow liquor stores to sell chilled beer or other products.

"What else would they be allowed to sell? Would they sell everything else that I sell, too? There's too many questions out there," he said. "In everything I've seen proposed there's winners and losers. I don't know how they're going to get it where there's no losers."

But Williams said he thinks there is a way to restring the high wire without dropping the bear or burning down the circus tent.

"One thing I'm certain of is you have to get consensus among the retailers, the grocery stores, the distributors - the industry, I would call it," he said. "It can't be us against them.

"I'm firmly convinced it's not going to be easy to come up with whatever compromise there is."

[Conan71]

Task force member Zach Prichard, president of McAlester-based Choc Beer, said broadening the sales of strong beer would definitely put many liquor stores out of business, which would translate into fewer retail outlets for niche-label beers like his own.

"I think a lot of people assume 'Hey, I'm going to get all the beers I can buy at the retail liquor store in Walmart or Whole Foods.' ... and that's not going to be the case," Prichard said "There definitely would be less availability of beer to the consumer."

How would there be less availability to the consumer?  I've said it before and I'll say it again: grocery stores don't have near enough space to devote to carrying all sorts of micro-brews and wines.  Sure, you might be able to get a six pack of Fat Tire at Reasor's, but I doubt they would carry a Grand Cru from Avery.  Walking through Collins, Ranch Acres, or Parkhill's beer section now is like walking through a library.  It's unbelievable how many micro-brews and imports are out there now.

IOW, I might pick up some good beer or a bottle of wine at the store as a convenience when I'm getting meat or produce, but it wouldn't take away much of my business from the liquor stores I frequent because I do like exotic beers and better wines.  Nobody ever accused me of being a cheap drunk

[Townsend]

There will be so many hands in this everyone on either side will stop, look at each other and say "Wait, what?"  Then it will fail miserably.

[Conan71]

There will be so many hands in this everyone on either side will stop, look at each other and say "Wait, what?"  Then it will fail miserably.

I see they have people with commercial interests on the task force.  I wonder if it ever occurred to them to have some citizens on the committee.

And then there's Don Vito...

[Townsend]

I see they have people with commercial interests on the task force.  I wonder if it ever occurred to them to have some citizens on the committee.

No no no...that's to protect us.

[DTowner]

Sadly liquor in Oklahoma is a pie that has been divided up among the interested parties (save the consumer) and none of those parties has any interest in changing a very cushy arrangement.  No consumer representative is on the task force because we don't matter to the "stakeholders."  Even worse, because so much of the system is enshrined in Oklahoma's constitution, change is nearly impossible.

The argument that Oklahomans have "access" to more product than Texans is laughable.  If a Texan can't find a wine he wants at the local liquor store, he can order it from the winery and have it shipped to his house (and Texas collects its tax).  That's a win/win - liquor store doesn't have to carry less well-known product and the consumer can obtain anything he wants.