District 4 Dilemma

[DTowner]

I could see a compromise of sorts by keeping MTTA to operate the unprofitable routes.

Is there any profitable bus route in Tusla at the current time?  I doubt it.

MTTA's mission far exceeds its resources and has a result offers a lousy product that costs a lot of money for each user.  Would Tulsans be willing to reduce the number of routes by half (to those routes most used) but double the resources on those routes so that service is substantially improved?  

[Gaspar]

West side is self-sufficient. East side is self sufficient. Sand Springs, Owasso, Bixby, Broken Arrow, Jenks, Glenpool...not only self-sufficient but provide no municipal bus service to their residents, poor, elderly or not. Each of those areas have multiples of grocery stores, hospitals, medical clinics, entertainment and services. The MTTA buses and routes to those areas could hardly be profitable.

So what exactly is it that you think keeps downtown, north side, north west, Reservoir Hill, Owen Park and Brady District without a plethora of these life enhancing businesses?

I suppose that could be answered.  These services used to exist in these areas, but shut down or moved away.  Why?

The answer is simple.  Lets just look at grocery stores.  They operate on razor thin margins and rely on volume to survive.  They are subject to huge losses from liability, shrink, and even moderate loss of volume.  They are also easy targets for crime, and suffer greatly from crime against their customers (walking through a parking lot with groceries lets criminals know that you are carrying money).  Low margin items and subsidy eligible packaged items don't generate enough profit for them.  They have to sell their higher margin products like meat and brand name program items. Aside from all of those logical variables, grocery shopping is an experience that people want to enjoy rather than view as stress.  When you are relaxed you participate more in the shopping experience.

I would assume that one or all of these factors affect their decisions not to locate in those areas.  The same holds true of other business models, but grocery is by far the most fragile and typically the first to shrink out of a market.  When I lived in St. Louis we had Schnuck's stores that had locations all over town (at the time I did loss prevention consulting for them).  I typically drove all the way to Claton to go to the Schnuck's store because the one just up the street (less than a mile) from me was in a "bad" neighborhood, and even though they had 5 or 6 police officers in the store at all times (and an awesome camera system that I specified), I just felt more comfortable shopping in a place where I didn't feel I needed to go in "heavy" to be safe. Eventually that store shut down because many in my neighborhood did the same thing, driving an extra 8 miles to buy the exact same products, but with a better experience.

[Conan71]

West side is self-sufficient. East side is self sufficient. Sand Springs, Owasso, Bixby, Broken Arrow, Jenks, Glenpool...not only self-sufficient but provide no municipal bus service to their residents, poor, elderly or not. Each of those areas have multiples of grocery stores, hospitals, medical clinics, entertainment and services. The MTTA buses and routes to those areas could hardly be profitable.

So what exactly is it that you think keeps downtown, north side, north west, Reservoir Hill, Owen Park and Brady District without a plethora of these life enhancing businesses?

And people know there's no mass transit when they move to a suburb.  People who rely on public transportation generally don't move to the suburbs.

You can say the west side is self-sufficient, yet there's only one grocery store I can think of, no entertainment district, nothing in the way of big box stores north of 71st St.  They are largely ignored by many fast food chains as well. I'm not even sure if there are physician's offices on the west side if they are not connected to OSU Tulsa off SW Blvd.

Business follows money.

[AquaMan]

I think you guys are off your usual high level of logic today. I can't disagree with what you've posted, just surprised that we all seem to be swapping each other's positions today.

Grocery stores remain an enigma to me as to how and where they locate. I'm not disagreeing with you Gas, and I have spent some time working with grocers before they changed their advertising programs. One was an IGA at Pine and Harvard that did pretty well for years till IGA and Safeway began to unravel. I am just noting that you can often find three grocery stores adjacent to each other in a solid area like Brookside or farther south even with the razor thin margins. And since there is now only one grocer north of 15th the crime argument starts to weaken as well. Anyone who shops Reasors at 15th or Walmart in Brookside knows that a large % of their shoppers come from North.

I think the perception of crime, theft, unavailable margins keeps them from even trying. Same with a lot of other services. Why take a risk when those customers are going to go to your store farther south anyway? And who cares how they get there? Buses, bikes, hoopties. I always see cabs at Reasors but not at Pyramid or Whole Foods. Probably a third of our business at 15th & Lewis Office Depot was northside business. Church vans. Even with the theft and scare factor we couldn't have survived without them.

Business follows money? There is money on the Hill, in Gilcrease, in Owen Park, especially disposable income because the cost of living is lower there... where is the business? In fact there ought to be a small Petty's type operation. Its more than economics, its laziness, fear and long held mythological perceptions.

As far as MTTA I'll just say again. Anyone who hasn't tried to rely on them before should try it and make your own judgement. But until the Mayor, the heads of Authorities and Boards are required to use the service for a month, I have no interest in their remarks. Same thing with Authority directors who don't use or live near their own operations. If you don't get the same trash service as everyone else then start listening.  I'm just tired of funding things that haven't worked, don't work and probably can't work without questioning them. MTTA is no more special than EMSA and we constantly revisit that kingdom. Just put everything on the table and make them all justify whether their original functions can and are being met and if there are unintended consequences that weren't foreseen. If not re-adjust. That is the kind of process that strong businesses use.

[TheArtist]

   Transit Friendly and Pedestrian Friendly are the same thing.  


Its odd to build a city that makes transit friendly developments too costly and or illegal, and then turn around and wonder why your transit situation is lousy.  

Its illegal to have mixed use, transit friendly, developments in most areas of the city.  We have absurd minimum parking requirements that negate the creation of transit friendly developments in most areas of the city.  Our housing zoning is such that it encourages car oriented housing developments and discourages transit friendly housing developments.

 One has to trudge out to the edge of your non-transit friendly housing development  (apartment complex or neighborhood) to get to transit, and then get plopped down in a sea of non-transit friendly work or shopping areas.  We make it illegal to do otherwise, and then sigh and bemoan how little people use transit and how much it costs and can't support itself?

We have made it so that transit can't work, so of course,,, it doesn't!

Whether privately run or city run, it won't work, it won't be competitive, it won't be cost effective until we decide we want it to be and make the changes that will allow it to be.

[Conan71]

I think you guys are off your usual high level of logic today. I can't disagree with what you've posted, just surprised that we all seem to be swapping each other's positions today.

Grocery stores remain an enigma to me as to how and where they locate. I'm not disagreeing with you Gas, and I have spent some time working with grocers before they changed their advertising programs. One was an IGA at Pine and Harvard that did pretty well for years till IGA and Safeway began to unravel. I am just noting that you can often find three grocery stores adjacent to each other in a solid area like Brookside or farther south even with the razor thin margins. And since there is now only one grocer north of 15th the crime argument starts to weaken as well. Anyone who shops Reasors at 15th or Walmart in Brookside knows that a large % of their shoppers come from North.

I think the perception of crime, theft, unavailable margins keeps them from even trying. Same with a lot of other services. Why take a risk when those customers are going to go to your store farther south anyway? And who cares how they get there? Buses, bikes, hoopties. I always see cabs at Reasors but not at Pyramid or Whole Foods. Probably a third of our business at 15th & Lewis Office Depot was northside business. Church vans. Even with the theft and scare factor we couldn't have survived without them.

Business follows money? There is money on the Hill, in Gilcrease, in Owen Park, especially disposable income because the cost of living is lower there... where is the business? In fact there ought to be a small Petty's type operation. Its more than economics, its laziness, fear and long held mythological perceptions.

There's more than one grocer north of 15th.  Aside from Los Americas at Pine & Peoria and Lewis & Admiral, there are Warehouse Markets on N. Sheridan between Admiral & Pine,  62nd St. N & Peoria, and just south of 244 on 49th W. Ave.  There's also a WM in the middle of the poveryty pocket at 61st & Peoria.  Scott Smith attempted to get a neighborhood grocery going in Brady Heights and it did not survive.  I have no idea if that was a problem with the owner not understanding the business or if it simply was not well-received in his community.

You've got to have some critical mass to make operations like that survive.  Warehouse Market's business model seems to work in lower income areas, however a model like Albertson's didn't work in a low income area because it's more like the model for Reasor's or Food Pyramid, which ironically now own all the former Albertson's.  Go to their web site and look where their stores are located.  They don't stock near the quality of meat or produce you will find at Food Pyramid or Reasor's and they don't carry premium brands.

Large grocers are more risk averse than smaller entrepreneurs due to the slim margins.  With the exception of their specialty departments like deli or the butcher section, they are selling a commodity, not value, that's one reasons the margins are so thin.  The larger ones rely a lot on consumer science and volume.  Smaller ones can offer more personalized service and cater to niches.  The typical grocery shopper is price-driven rather than value driven when you look at the vast majority of grocery stores in this city.  The two notable exceptions would be Petty's and Whole Paycheck where value is more important than price.

In any case, it looks like with two markets opening in the near future in downtown, that Reservoir Hill, Brady Heights, Owen Park, and downtown will be served with great grocers.  Now so long as consumers are willing to pay a little more for dealing with a smaller scale merchant which does not have the buying power of Homeland, Reasors, Wal-Mart, Target, Food Pyramid, etc. then I think these two downtown groceries should fare well.  It's a bigger risk than I would want to take as parking is yet one more convenience people want when they shop.  I know we all have this model in our own heads of grabbing one bag and being willing to walk for blocks, but most people won't walk a block with a few bags of groceries.

[Red Arrow]

Open up an level the playing field so that mass transit can fairly compete with the auto, and let what happens happen.  

A level playing field experiment would be interesting.  Not only do not favor the automobile but don't favor transit either.  I think both would be winners in obviously separate locations.

[Red Arrow]

I know we all have this model in our own heads of grabbing one bag and being willing to walk for blocks, but most people won't walk a block with a few bags of groceries.

I thought there were 2 wheel dollies available for such conditions.  I'm not thinking of a 2 wheeler for moving heavy boxes and appliances into your home but the same function in a very light duty 2 grocery bag size.

[AquaMan]

Is there any profitable bus route in Tusla at the current time?  I doubt it.

MTTA's mission far exceeds its resources and has a result offers a lousy product that costs a lot of money for each user.  Would Tulsans be willing to reduce the number of routes by half (to those routes most used) but double the resources on those routes so that service is substantially improved?  

If the reception for changes proposed for trash pickup was any indication, then I would say, no. OKC includes their recycling with regular trash pickup and provides users with large wheeled trash cans but pickups are less frequent. We can't get past less frequent pickups. My favorite concept for a big selling bumper sticker in this town is "Vote NO". Could be shortened to just "Hell, NO".

Increasing the resources on routes may not even solve the problem. Other than being unreliable for a rider as demanding as I am, I'm not sure what the other problems are. I mean, in difficult times it ought to be going gangbusters, but I have a feeling that even with high ridership, the breakeven point for the business exceeds what the full bus revenues would be. If it lost advertising the whole thing would collapse. I like the idea of buses and I know there are those who are totally dependent on them. I even understand the need to subsidize some routes. But as a business, the current model isn't working and I'm not sure it could. Artist makes good points that it exists in part of a larger framework of zoning and development that may actually be mass transit hostile.

Wouldn't hurt to start from scratch and look at larger issues like parking, zoning, vehicle design, frequencies and niche routes to create a system we could be proud of. That is what a private firm would do right out of the gate.

[Conan71]

I thought there were 2 wheel dollies available for such conditions.  I'm not thinking of a 2 wheeler for moving heavy boxes and appliances into your home but the same function in a very light duty 2 grocery bag size.

There are and they are quite popular in more pedestrian urban areas.  I think it's going to be awhile before Tulsans use them like New Yorkers.

[SXSW]

If the reception for changes proposed for trash pickup was any indication, then I would say, no. OKC includes their recycling with regular trash pickup and provides users with large wheeled trash cans but pickups are less frequent. We can't get past less frequent pickups. My favorite concept for a big selling bumper sticker in this town is "Vote NO". Could be shortened to just "Hell, NO". 

This is going to be a big issue for our new councilors.  I think there is building support for a change to once-a-week service with bins for trash and recycling like most cities. 

[Red Arrow]

This kind of density can support Transit if enough people are going in the same direction.  Note the trolley tracks near Windsor Circle with the blue indicators.  Up and to the right is toward Philadelphia.  Down and to the left is toward Media, the county seat.  This trolley line was put in place in the early 1900s.  A lot of the development was because of the trolley.  Closer in to Philly, it is more dense.  Farther out, not so much so.  There is also regional rail and bus service in the area.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Windsor+Circle,+Springfield,+PA&hl=en&ll=39.935605,-75.338831&spn=0.02978,0.080895&sll=39.940566,-75.298587&sspn=0.007444,0.016136&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=15

Note the little shopping area on Brookside Ave Rd across the tracks from Windsor Circle. It's pretty much as I remember but the stores are not the same and some of the houses have added on.  There used to be trees on School Lane between the curb and sidewalk.

[Gaspar]

You've got to have some critical mass to make operations like that survive.  Warehouse Market's business model seems to work in lower income areas, however a model like Albertson's didn't work in a low income area because it's more like the model for Reasor's or Food Pyramid, which ironically now own all the former Albertson's.  Go to their web site and look where their stores are located.  They don't stock near the quality of meat or produce you will find at Food Pyramid or Reasor's and they don't carry premium brands.

As someone who buys A LOT of meat (buying about 100lbs today) I can vouch for the fact that.  Every now and then I make my way (rolling heavy) into a Whorehouse Market to pick something up and I always swing by the meat counter to browse.  I would rather by the mystery animal hanging at a Tijuana street market than some of the stuff they stock!

[TheArtist]

  I went in the other day to one of the small Mexican run markets over by I44 and Peoria.  I was suprised that the prices were comparable to the Reasors by my house.  There are other areas of the city with comparable demographics to the north side, where there are other hispanic or asian grocery stores, some have big chains fairly nearby, some don't.

  What gets me is how if there is this food desert, isn't that opportunity?  And why on earth if there is this opportunity in your community would someone there not step in to take advantage of it vrs letting the cat out of the bag by complaining that someone else from outside hasn't come in and done it?   

[DolfanBob]

As someone who buys A LOT of meat (buying about 100lbs today) I can vouch for the fact that.  Every now and then I make my way (rolling heavy) into a Whorehouse Market to pick something up and I always swing by the meat counter to browse.  I would rather by the mystery animal hanging at a Tijuana street market than some of the stuff they stock!

I shopped Warehouse Market back in the 90s during my years of financial crunch. And I would never buy their meat. I tried a couple of times but then started to just suck it up and go to B&B when they were open out here in B.A. I gather their meat hasnt gotten any better over time.