Is The Occupy Wall Street Movement an Answer to The Tea Party Movement?

[Gaspar]

as opposed to:

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said on Monday that he'll allow the Wall Street protesters to stay indefinitely, provided they abide by the law, marking his strongest statement to date on the city's willingness to let demonstrators occupy a park in Lower Manhattan.
http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/10/bloomberg-occupy-wall-street-can-stay-indefinitely/

Yes.  This morning at 11, the mayor announced that the protesters would have to leave the park by tomorrow for "cleaning." After which they may return.  When they return, they will not be allowed to bring their belongings (tents/sleeping materials) with them.

New rules issued:

[Gaspar]

Yes.  This morning at 11, the mayor announced that the protesters would have to leave the park by tomorrow for "cleaning." After which they may return.  When they return, they will not be allowed to bring their belongings (tents/sleeping materials) with them.

To follow up on that.  I seriously doubt they will be allowed to return.  I'm willing to bet some major "health risk" will be magically discovered and they will be turned away indefinitely.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think there are more than 4 million in the 99% club.  There are approximately 310 million people in the US.  Figure about 1/4 of them pay income tax considering families and low income folks.  That would be 76,725,000 people in the 99% club. Using your example, 76,725,000/4,000,000 = 19.18.  Each of the 99%ers would only have to pay $1,000/19.18 = $52.13.  I think I can afford that.

UNFORTUNATELY, $1000 x 4 million people is only $4 Billion, not the $400 Billion you mentioned.  You missed two orders of magnitude.

For the 1%ers to carry this, they would average $400B/775,000 people = $516,129. each.  The 99%ers would average $5213. each.   Averages can be deceiving since even with a flat rate, 15% or the highest earned income bracket, those who make more pay more dollars.  (The issue of fairness is not part of this analysis.)   I am aware that this somewhat makes your point but what it really shows is that we are spending too much.  It doesn't matter who gets stuck with the bill, we can't pay it.

Good catch!  And yes, I missed the extra two zeros on the calculator when punching it in.  And you just made my point for me and showed that it is SOOO much worse than the case I was using as example!  Thanks!

Fairness IS the whole issue!

Goes to respect for the Constitution and all that nonsense Dr. Seuss stuff they taught us in school about 'equal treatment under the law'!  The 1%ers sure aren't treated equally under the law to the other 99%!  Blatantly un-Constitutional.

[guido911]

Twinkles!!!

[Gaspar]

Twinkles!!!

What ever happened to the finger?

[Red Arrow]

I wanted some better numbers than guessing how many taxpayers were in the top 1%, how much they paid, and how much we would need to increase their taxes to get an additional $400 Billion.

I found the info below on politico by Googling "one million income".  It's not Fox, no one should dispute the numbers in this article. I was surprised that only the top 0.1% earned $1 million or more.

People and households earning $1 million or more annually made up just 0.1 percent, or just over 235,000, of the 140 million tax returns filed in 2009, and just 8,274 returns were filed by people making $10 million or more.

Though the tax rate for Americans earning a gross adjusted income of $1 million or more averaged 24.4 percent, up from 23.1 percent in 2008, that's still lower than the 28.5 percent rate they paid in 2002

And, the data show, the 235,413 taxpayers who reported earning seven digits or more in 2009 took in a total of $726.9 billion — yet 1,470 paid not a penny of income taxes. In 2007, 959 Americans earning $1 million or more paid no income taxes.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/60717.html

Let's see if we can put the $400 B increase on those making $1 Million or more.

Average tax rate for $1million or more: 24.4%
Total income of 7 figure earners:  $726.9 Billion
Tax paid: $726.9B x 24.4% = $177,363,600,000.

Increase of 3%:
27.4% of $726.9 B = $199,170,600,000.

Difference: $21,807,000,000. No where near the $400 B increase (that won't help much) by a factor of about 18 times.

Let's just add $400 B and find a rate:
($177,363,600,000 + $400B) / $726.9 B = $577,363,600,000 / $726.9 B = 79% overall average tax rate. That $400B increase would only cover about 1/3 of the deficit.
I think we will need to go lower than $1 Million income.

I need to know the circumstances of the 1470 (0.6% of 235,413) that paid no tax before I condemn them.  

1% of 140,000,000 taxpayers = 1,400,000 taxpayers.  I wanted to find out how much tax  the top 1% paid.  I found the info below for 2008 (a year earlier than the Politico numbers but probably close enough.)

The info below is from Kiplinger.  I put in income numbers in the calculator until it showed the tax paid by the top 1% rather than the top 0.1%.  

How Your Income Stacks Up
Updated October 2010 / Based on IRS data from 2008 tax returns

Your $1,000,000 adjusted gross income (AGI) puts you in the top 1% of earners.
The top-earning 1% of taxpayers reported 22.0% of all AGI and paid 38.02% of total income taxes.


Together, you and the other 1.4 million taxpayers with incomes of $380,354 or more paid a total of $450.9 billion in federal income taxes.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/income_rank/index.php

I didn't find the the average tax rate for the top 1% or the total taxable income by the top 1% (vs. the top 0.1%) to calculate the average rate.

It looks like in order to raise an additional $400 B from the top 1%, we will need to nearly double ({$450.9B + $400 B} / $450.9 B = 1.89 times) the tax paid by them.  That's a bit more than the modest 3% touted by a lot of people.

Is that enough?  

[guido911]

What ever happened to the finger?

They are just a bunch of morons. Let them have their sign language.

[nathanm]

RA, you may find this useful:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The source data is here:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=98123,00.html

[Gaspar]

On MSNBC's Morning Joe, DONNY DEUTSCH said he "hopes for a Kent State moment" at OWS so that their message will continue to resonate with the American people.

So now the left begins to hope for violence.  Sad!

[Gaspar]

Things are apparently getting ugly now.  The cleanup was postponed by Blumeberg because the protesters were threatening violence.  This morning they blocked off one end of the street, and NYPD has assembled in Battery park with riot gear and urban assault vehicles.  They have assembled barracades to funnel the crowd and protect Wall Street workers trying to get to their offices.

The police are no longer allowing the protesters on the street and one protester ran out in front of a police motorcycle and was run over and injured. Today will not be a good day.  The protesters and the police are fueled by rage.

Bloomberg:FAIL

[guido911]

Laughed at how truthful this is:

[Red Arrow]

RA, you may find this useful:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The source data is here:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=98123,00.html

Thanks.

The Tax Foundation lists the top 1% being taxed at 23.27%.  From my previous analysis, to get an extra $400 Billion from them would put them at approximately 44% overall, not the marginal rate.  I personally think that is a bit high, especially since it would only cover about 1/3 of the deficit.  People need to realize that we are either spending too much or the bottom 99% cannot continue to pretend that everything can be paid for by the top 1%.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I wanted some better numbers than guessing how many taxpayers were in the top 1%, how much they paid, and how much we would need to increase their taxes to get an additional $400 Billion.
Th

It looks like in order to raise an additional $400 B from the top 1%, we will need to nearly double ({$450.9B + $400 B} / $450.9 B = 1.89 times) the tax paid by them.  That's a bit more than the modest 3% touted by a lot of people.

Is that enough?  

Don't see anything about incentive stock options.  That is the part of the discussion that is always dismissed by the 1%ers - it's always about how "we pay so much in dollars than anyone else".  And that is the overwhelming part of income that is universally ignored.  When there is a $1 million regular income, there is always a 5 to 120 million "bonus" and "stock option" income.  At 15%.  Rather than 25% or 30 or whatever.

That is the big free ride they have been enjoying for years.  And that has finally come to the awareness of many people, most of whom couldn't/wouldn't believe there is that much gross inequity in the system.  Probably a big motivator to the protests we see going on now.

[Red Arrow]

The police are no longer allowing the protesters on the street and one protester ran out in front of a police motorcycle and was run over and injured.

Reminds me of a situation in the late 80s.  Some protesters wanted to stop a train (either military or nuclear stuff on it) and sat on the tracks.  One guy got run over and lost his legs.  Some of my friends were appalled that the train engineer didn't stop.  I stated that the protester could have easily moved off the rails, the protester willingly gave his legs for "the cause".

We'll see what happens in NYC.

[Teatownclown]

Things are apparently getting ugly now.  The cleanup was postponed by Blumeberg because the protesters were threatening violence.  This morning they blocked off one end of the street, and NYPD has assembled in Battery park with riot gear and urban assault vehicles.  They have assembled barracades to funnel the crowd and protect Wall Street workers trying to get to their offices.

The police are no longer allowing the protesters on the street and one protester ran out in front of a police motorcycle and was run over and injured. Today will not be a good day.  The protesters and the police are fueled by rage.

Bloomberg:FAIL

You've been in the looking glass if you think things are getting ugly. Your grotesque comment is a fail.

Occupy Wall Street Has Already Won
How the movement has already shaken up American politics, and where it should go from here.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_best_policy/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_s_victory_it_has_shaken_up_american_politics_.html
"But until these protests, no political figure or movement had made Americans pay attention to these facts in a meaningful way. Indeed, over the long hot summer, as poverty rose and unemployment stagnated, the entire discussion was about cutting our deficit."
"There is much ground to cover before real reform, but as a voice challenging a self-satisfied, well-protected status quo, OWS is already powerful and successful."

Now, vilify the author of the article rather than addressing the silent majority.